Burnley first goal

[Baloo]

I was talking about the offside goal yesterday in reply to Lawnmower and that we can't rely on decisions going our way in order to win games, we make to many basic errors. It's bad luck, ineptitude, etc, decisions are going to against us from time to time, that's part of the game, go again. Giving the ball away and ball watching isn't the fault of the officials.

Yes, see my follow-up post.

Talking about contentious decisions and clear mistakes is natural and doesn’t automatically make you one-eyed. Imo I don’t think it always requires a reminder that we were lucky in September or whenever, are not very good and explorations into the psychology of refereeing. It’s just interesting to discuss whether individual decisions in these crucial remaining games for us were right or wrong.

Decisions may balance out over a season but in the few games we’ve got left could have a major impact on our chances of survival. Pundits have been highlighting them recently so I think it’s only natural fans will discuss them.

Imo in a quest to always be fair-minded I think it’s also possible to gradually look unsympathetically on most things relating to City and actually lose a bit of balance too. Just my opinion regarding the way some of these threads go.

[the other bob wilson]

However, BT Sport pundit Robbie Savage raised an argument of offside against the decision and ex-ref Walton then spotted another infringement when analysing the decision.

“When that ball came over for the corner kick, I don’t think it touched anybody and it should have been a goal kick,” he said.

“Then, when the ball comes over, Barnes is stood in an offside position and the mere fact he makes a movement may have interfered with the goalkeeper’s line of sight.

“Had there been an offside decision, I wouldn’t have been surprised. I think VAR would have drawn that to the referee’s attention. I think he was, his movement and his presence there is enough to say he’s interfering with his opponent.”

The decision could prove to be significant for Cardiff’s season as Neil Warnock’s side entered the weekend five points from safety.

This is where I think we might have a valid argument about the first goal - I've watched it a few times now and it's hard to see which City player got a touch on the free kick for the corner to be given, the decision to penalise Peltier is also a pretty soft one.

Just watched all of the second half on the club site and would say this about the controversial decisions.

1. Handball by Mee from Arter's shot - Mee's hand is by his side when the ball hits it so that usually means no penalty, but he is a few yards away from Arter so I think it's in the some you get, some you don't category.
2. Handball by Mee from Bennett's cross - definitely not a penalty for me. However, the referee clearly gives it and still thinks it's a penalty when confronted by the Burnley players, so what caused him to change his mind? Neil Warnock said after the game that the fourth official told him the linesman thought it was a penalty, so, again, if that is correct, why the changed decision? What you cannot see from the video is how the linesman reacted at the time of the incident, if he did think it was a penalty then, presumably, he flagged for one - if that was the case, there is no reason I can think of for the referee to change his decision. Although I think the correct decision was given in the end, City should feel aggrieved that the referee changed his mind like he did - the fact that there has been no explanation from Mr Dean or the authorities as to the reasoning behind the change of mind does not help the situation at all.
3. Foul by Taylor on Gunnarsson. A bit of a strange one this because the players concerned are not in typical positions for a penalty shout, but it looks like a foul to me. That said, it was only after seeing it slowed down and from different angles that I came to this conclusion because I couldn't see that Taylor had done anything wrong when I watched it for the first time at normal speed.

For me, City were on the wrong end of a few diabolical decisions against Chelsea, but I don't think any of the major ones yesterday fell into that category. However, in a match as important as yesterday's was, it must be a reason for concern that all of the big decisions went the way of one team - I'm not suggesting Mike Dean was corrupt or openly biased, more inept because having now watched most of the ninety minutes, his overall handling of the game was not up to the standards you would expect in a Premier League match.

People have talked about our winner against Brighton and Lee Mason's changed penalty decision against Huddersfield as examples of where luck has been on our side, but it seems to me that we've had far more times when we've had cause to criticise officials for wrong decisions with good cause than we have to praise them for coming to our rescue. As I've said before on here, I side with cock up over conspiracy when it comes to official's decisions, but they've certainly gone against us more than for us in our two seasons at this level.

[Tuerto]

Yes, see my follow-up post.

Talking about contentious decisions and clear mistakes is natural and doesn’t automatically make you one-eyed. Imo I don’t think it always requires a reminder that we were lucky in September or whenever, are not very good and explorations into the psychology of refereeing. It’s just interesting to discuss whether individual decisions in these crucial remaining games for us were right or wrong.

Decisions may balance out over a season but in the few games we’ve got left could have a major impact on our chances of survival. Pundits have been highlighting them recently so I think it’s only natural fans will discuss them.

Imo in a quest to always be fair-minded I think it’s also possible to gradually look unsympathetically on most things relating to City and actually lose a bit of balance too. Just my opinion regarding the way some of these threads go.

Fair enough, i take your point. My opinion is probably based a little bit on how i live my life personally, i suppose we all put a bit of our personality into our opinions and thoughts. I played alot of football at a decent enough level and was around Professionals for a few years, although that was a fair while back. In my experience they will know that they've not been good enough and they'll also know that the mistakes they have made would've over ridden the times that things have gone against them, i reckon you can include Warnock in that as well. Whatever he's like infront of the cameras wont represent what he's telling the players, i'm sure of that. It wont be poor decisions by officials or ineptitude that sends us down, it'll be individual and collective mistakes and the tactics employed. Shit happens at times, it's how you react is my mantra, i can understand those who see it the other way.

[headlight]

Long & short of it is yes the decisions that haven"t gone for us will not be the reason we go down it is the fact that we haven"t scored enough & have conceded to many.
However over the course of this season I think that overall the standard of refereeing of our games has been poor & the bad decisions have certainly not been balanced out by the "good" ones.

[lardy]

Referring to Bob's point number 2, on the analysis I saw after the game with Dermot Gallagher on mio sports, he showed the linesman flagging for the self handball. So for Dean to give it and then change his mind after talking to that linesman baffles me.

Gallagher also said it definitely wasn't a penalty (unqualified as I am, I disagree and have seen those given all over the field).

[Lawnmower]

Without getting 'David Brent' ( i know that i'm in that kind of territory) I'll elaborate. We allow pressure, we give the ball away thus inviting positions where there could be contentious decisions. If we were better at keeping the ball and alleviating the pressure from our defenders by reducing the amount of set pieces and attacks then we wouldn't find ourselves in these positions as much as we do. Honest footballers and managers will be thinking that, i know that i would, how can we prevent these situations or minimise them. Most fans will look for a get out, they're biased and that's fair enough, but the reality is that we can't rely on Referees in order for games to go our way, we have to try and make it certain, that may sound unfair but it's the reality. This notion that the bigger teams get the decisions is debatable although there may well be some truth in it. If you're in the ascendancy, pressing, attacking, stretching the opposition and forcing mistakes then the referee is going to be more inclined to go with the team who are making the opposition react, the ref is being pushed into that position. I may be wrong, but i'm of the opinion that we have the opportunity to make the difference on the pitch by not conceding the ball and by giving our defenders the chance to recover and get organised. We don't give ourselves a chance at times and that's nothing to do with the Officials in my opinion.

So how many times did contentious decisions go our way yesterday?

By your logic there may have been 12-14 and 7 go our way ??

I made it 7 out of 7 in favour of the home side.

I know what you are trying to say, but it’s not in line with what happened yesterday. Over half of the contentious decisions were when we were attacking !!

Giving the ball away had nothing at all to do with that.

In fact when 3 of them occurred we were dominant and knocking the ball around as well as any bottom half side.

Our poor ball retention is no excuse for shit officials

[Lawnmower]

This is where I think we might have a valid argument about the first goal - I've watched it a few times now and it's hard to see which City player got a touch on the free kick for the corner to be given, the decision to penalise Peltier is also a pretty soft one.

Just watched all of the second half on the club site and would say this about the controversial decisions.

1. Handball by Mee from Arter's shot - Mee's hand is by his side when the ball hits it so that usually means no penalty, but he is a few yards away from Arter so I think it's in the some you get, some you don't category.
2. Handball by Mee from Bennett's cross - definitely not a penalty for me. However, the referee clearly gives it and still thinks it's a penalty when confronted by the Burnley players, so what caused him to change his mind? Neil Warnock said after the game that the fourth official told him the linesman thought it was a penalty, so, again, if that is correct, why the changed decision? What you cannot see from the video is how the linesman reacted at the time of the incident, if he did think it was a penalty then, presumably, he flagged for one - if that was the case, there is no reason I can think of for the referee to change his decision. Although I think the correct decision was given in the end, City should feel aggrieved that the referee changed his mind like he did - the fact that there has been no explanation from Mr Dean or the authorities as to the reasoning behind the change of mind does not help the situation at all.
3. Foul by Taylor on Gunnarsson. A bit of a strange one this because the players concerned are not in typical positions for a penalty shout, but it looks like a foul to me. That said, it was only after seeing it slowed down and from different angles that I came to this conclusion because I couldn't see that Taylor had done anything wrong when I watched it for the first time at normal speed.

For me, City were on the wrong end of a few diabolical decisions against Chelsea, but I don't think any of the major ones yesterday fell into that category. However, in a match as important as yesterday's was, it must be a reason for concern that all of the big decisions went the way of one team - I'm not suggesting Mike Dean was corrupt or openly biased, more inept because having now watched most of the ninety minutes, his overall handling of the game was not up to the standards you would expect in a Premier League match.

People have talked about our winner against Brighton and Lee Mason's changed penalty decision against Huddersfield as examples of where luck has been on our side, but it seems to me that we've had far more times when we've had cause to criticise officials for wrong decisions with good cause than we have to praise them for coming to our rescue. As I've said before on here, I side with cock up over conspiracy when it comes to official's decisions, but they've certainly gone against us more than for us in our two seasons at this level.

Good summary, although I’d say the first Mee handball is a pen, he ‘s got his hand clearly out and could have avoided it. The shot is on target too.

Seeing what gets given elsewhere makes me more confident of it.

However , like you say, it was just the sheer volume of borderline major decisions that went against us that causes the frustration

[Tuerto]

So how many times did contentious decisions go our way yesterday?

By your logic there may have been 12-14 and 7 go our way ??

I made it 7 out of 7 in favour of the home side.

I know what you are trying to say, but it’s not in line with what happened yesterday. Over half of the contentious decisions were when we were attacking !!

Giving the ball away had nothing at all to do with that.

In fact when 3 of them occurred we were dominant and knocking the ball around as well as any bottom half side.

Our poor ball retention is no excuse for shit officials

I don't think any of them were penalties, i think that the referee got it right, you don't, that's football. In isolation i can understand why people are pissed about yesterday and if we're having a debate solely on yesterday's situation then fair enough. It doesn't work like that though, we didn't defend their first goal properly whether it was offside or not, we can't rely on others to do our work for us. I'm honest about the situation and understand that things will go against us at times but to be quite frank that's tough shit, we have enough in us not to make poor mistakes and to try and create chances for our striker. If we go down it'll have nothing to do with the officials in my opinion and everything to do with not being good enough. I can't look at one game in isolation, that's ridiculous.

[jon1959]

People have talked about our winner against Brighton and Lee Mason's changed penalty decision against Huddersfield as examples of where luck has been on our side, but it seems to me that we've had far more times when we've had cause to criticise officials for wrong decisions with good cause than we have to praise them for coming to our rescue. As I've said before on here, I side with cock up over conspiracy when it comes to official's decisions, but they've certainly gone against us more than for us in our two seasons at this level.

My feelings exactly.

Over the season we have good reason to complain about officials' decisions and it will not 'even itself out'.

That doesn't excuse the regular mistakes at both ends of the pitch (although the effort and commitment has been there for all but a handful of games).

When the EPL hand out the end-of-season award for 'Manager Most Hard Done By' it will be a close fight between Warnock and Wagner.

[Lawnmower]

I don't think any of them were penalties, i think that the referee got it right, you don't, that's football. In isolation i can understand why people are pissed about yesterday and if we're having a debate solely on yesterday's situation then fair enough. It doesn't work like that though, we didn't defend their first goal properly whether it was offside or not, we can't rely on others to do our work for us. I'm honest about the situation and understand that things will go against us at times but to be quite frank that's tough shit, we have enough in us not to make poor mistakes and to try and create chances for our striker. If we go down it'll have nothing to do with the officials in my opinion and everything to do with not being good enough. I can't look at one game in isolation, that's ridiculous.

How about 2 in a row then ?

[Lawnmower]

I don't think any of them were penalties, i think that the referee got it right, you don't, that's football. In isolation i can understand why people are pissed about yesterday and if we're having a debate solely on yesterday's situation then fair enough. It doesn't work like that though, we didn't defend their first goal properly whether it was offside or not, we can't rely on others to do our work for us. I'm honest about the situation and understand that things will go against us at times but to be quite frank that's tough shit, we have enough in us not to make poor mistakes and to try and create chances for our striker. If we go down it'll have nothing to do with the officials in my opinion and everything to do with not being good enough. I can't look at one game in isolation, that's ridiculous.

None of them ?

3 handballs and a trip - and you think none were penalties ?

Or the ‘foul’ by Peltier and corner which was given for Etheridge apparently touching the cross with his 3 foot long fingers, and then the offside for their goal ?

Or the foul on Murphy, just a booking ?

You think he got every one of those questionable decisions right ??


Really.

[Lawnmower]

My feelings exactly.

Over the season we have good reason to complain about officials' decisions and it will not 'even itself out'.

That doesn't excuse the regular mistakes at both ends of the pitch (although the effort and commitment has been there for all but a handful of games).

When the EPL hand out the end-of-season award for 'Manager Most Hard Done By' it will be a close fight between Warnock and Wagner.

From what I’ve seen Huddersfield have had it even worse than us !

[J R Hartley]

Yea I spotted that as the corner was about to be taken , why was camarasa on wood ,that’s a strange one I thought and I just had a feeling then he was gong to score

Having watched it again for about the eigth time and pausing the tv on MOTDs angle as the ball comes in it’s Morrison who loses Wood.

He gets drawn to Tarowski for some reason, who had gotten the wrong side of Bennett, but the ball was never reaching that far anyway.

I know Burnley are a big side but it’s very poor defending from Morrison. It’s not even a clever peel off from Wood he just goes to meet the ball.

[AlwaysAway2]

They will get us relegated .... but they will be embarrassed at how bloody obvious they have been in achieving it given our fighting spirit. The whole football world continues to watch with interest. No one but us will care but deep down they know.
It’s the Big 6 Premiership and it really is total shit.

[the other bob wilson]

Referring to Bob's point number 2, on the analysis I saw after the game with Dermot Gallagher on mio sports, he showed the linesman flagging for the self handball. So for Dean to give it and then change his mind after talking to that linesman baffles me.

Gallagher also said it definitely wasn't a penalty (unqualified as I am, I disagree and have seen those given all over the field).

Yes, baffling sums it up nicely.

[Tuerto]

None of them ?

3 handballs and a trip - and you think none were penalties ?

Or the ‘foul’ by Peltier and corner which was given for Etheridge apparently touching the cross with his 3 foot long fingers, and then the offside for their goal ?

Or the foul on Murphy, just a booking ?

You think he got every one of those questionable decisions right ??


Really.

I can't recall the other decisions apart from the Peltier one where he Burnley striker played for the free kick and the contact, Good play by him in my opinion. I don't think any of them were penalties. Neither of the handballs were intentional and Gunnar should've done a better job of going down, he looked like action man tripping over a frying pan. The others passed me by, you win some you lose some, that's the game. Why not look at the problems with our play and the way we concede possession 90% of the time and when we do get the ball back have little idea what to do with it, what is the plan, what is it that we are trying to do because i can't see any real method with our play and that's what concerns me, because that's what is important. I have no concern over crap refereeing, it's just an inconvenience, i do get concerned by defenders who ball watch at set pieces and midfielders who need to take three or four touches because there's nothing on. We just see things differently.

[Lawnmower]

I can't recall the other decisions apart from the Peltier one where he Burnley striker played for the free kick and the contact, Good play by him in my opinion. I don't think any of them were penalties. Neither of the handballs were intentional and Gunnar should've done a better job of going down, he looked like action man tripping over a frying pan. The others passed me by, you win some you lose some, that's the game. Why not look at the problems with our play and the way we concede possession 90% of the time and when we do get the ball back have little idea what to do with it, what is the plan, what is it that we are trying to do because i can't see any real method with our play and that's what concerns me, because that's what is important. I have no concern over crap refereeing, it's just an inconvenience, i do get concerned by defenders who ball watch at set pieces and midfielders who need to take three or four touches because there's nothing on. We just see things differently.

At this level it’s fine lines.

The ‘inconvenient ‘ crap refereeing cost us our best chance of a point or more yesterday.

Our team are what they are, limited, but have lost our on points yesterday and last week due to poor officiating.

As for Gunnar should have made more of it. Jesus, it’s a clear and obvious trip. He went down naturally. Shouldn’t need to act. That’s poor.

And in terms of you didn’t see the other decisions then the corner comes from a mysterious ‘touch’ by Etheridge which was pretty impossible and the offside is debated above.. the foul on Murphy wasn’t shown on the highlights, which I guess is all you have seen of the game ? And the 4th penalty appeal was where the Burnley player dived to block a shit. Being at the game there was more to see - and as most were at our end a decent angle to see them from.


I guess the majority of penalties we’ve had against us this season you would also not have given ?
Bournemouth, Newcastle, Leicester etc..

If that’s the case, fair enough.. otherwise you are as inconsistent as the refs.

In terms of poor marking I have commented on detail on that elsewhere.

[alan_corneli]

Just seem Motd
Can someone explain How was burnley first goal not offside , it wasn’t mentioned
Barnes (I think it was) was standing directly in front of Etheridge in an offside position

But his arm wasn't offisde

[splott parker]

Re. The Arter shot, what would the decision have been had the defender been on the goal line? Penalty & sending off or would play have just been waved on? If it is the former why is it a different situation because the incident is 10/15 yards further forward? If it’s the latter.......mmmm can’t see it being the latter!

[The Bloop]

Re. The Arter shot, what would the decision have been had the defender been on the goal line? Penalty & sending off or would play have just been waved on? If it is the former why is it a different situation because the incident is 10/15 yards further forward? If it’s the latter.......mmmm can’t see it being the latter!

It was similar to Man Utd penalty against PSG the other week, which was given.

The Mee handball off his head then arm was similar to Wigans penalty against Norwich earlier today, which was given.

Consistency from the officials would help us fans understand the rules, cos at the moment I haven't got a clue.

[G rangetown Blue]

I thought Burnley did a Cardiff on us. Struggled all afternoon to cope with their big strikers, an area we are usually strong.

I’m not sure it was even a corner for their first goal either.

[Lawnmower]

I thought Burnley did a Cardiff on us. Struggled all afternoon to cope with their big strikers, an area we are usually strong.

I’m not sure it was even a corner for their first goal either.

It wasn’t and yes they are a big physical side and we were missing 2 of our 3 most physical players

[Shute]

It must be much easier for officials to mug us off than it would be with more popular clubs. It does feel as if this survival attempt was not meant to be. The players are giving it everything and deserve better than we've got.

[G rangetown Blue]

It wasn’t and yes they are a big physical side and we were missing 2 of our 3 most physical players

Dean was tapping his hand, to indicate that Etheridge had touched it. He obviously didn’t see it (because it never happened), so therefore how can he award a corner?
So frustrating when referees ‘guess’ like that.

[Feedback]

You can’t be offside receiving the ball directly from a corner.

yes you can, it is just very difficult to be offside because generally speaking most attacking players are behind the ball when it is played.