Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious

[Croesy Blue]

M****cripts

It actually is

[rudy gestede]

I find it incredible that truths in physics, biology, chemistry, mathematics etc. are constantly being updated as research led discoveries shape our understanding of the universe yet religions are clinging on to m****cripts written thousands of years ago which, whilst containing excellent values (all our laws have Christian commandments at their heart), have not been updated any time recently by fresh religious visions, prophecy, miracles, visitations or suchlike which cannot be debunked with only minor investigation.

At the door of every church is a collection box/tray. They are a business which sells the afterlife. Something that comes with no guarantees, evidence or brochure. Each church is a franchise paying upwards to the top of the pyramid.

It used to exploit/oppress the ignorant in return for heavenly reward. Now it's a haven for the needy and easily led.
It used to be run by the power hungry and abusers. Now there's more women and minorities.

Eventually the business model will be dead.

This is another alt btw

[The Gifaffe]

This is another alt btw

Yes it is. See previous post re subject. Get over yourself.

[ToTaL ITK]

After years of being forced to listen to utter garbage and sing Holy holy holy! in assembly ...they didn't manage to indoctrinate me.
I'm of the mind that if you are religious you are not a free thinker, don't bother to try and change my mind tho :P

[pomeroy]

Please define objective truth.

[pomeroy]

None of the arguements for the existence of God be they Ontological, Cosmological , St. Thomas Aquinas so called 'proofs' nor the modish Presuppositional Apologetics actually demonstrably prove,in any way, the existence of God but merely regress to a greater conundrum i.e. who or what created the Creator?.

[rudy gestede]

None of the arguements for the existence of God be they Ontological, Cosmological , St. Thomas Aquinas so called 'proofs' nor the modish Presuppositional Apologetics actually demonstrably prove,in any way, the existence of God but merely regress to a greater conundrum i.e. who or what created the Creator?.

Is this him too?

[lardy]

None of the arguements for the existence of God be they Ontological, Cosmological , St. Thomas Aquinas so called 'proofs' nor the modish Presuppositional Apologetics actually demonstrably prove,in any way, the existence of God but merely regress to a greater conundrum i.e. who or what created the Creator?.

Parklife

[RonnieBird]

Well, if you are Wales-Bales you have played a blinder there with your Janet and John defence of globalist religion.

Just to play along for a while - the Romans persecuted lots of different people and beliefs (as well as tolerating them at other times) including Christianity before they adopted it and imposed it on everyone within their empire.

Who are our 'present day enemies' and what are their 'low practices'? Does 'our' relate to UK Christians, or to the mix of people who inhabit this messageboard (including the aetheists and Jedis)?

'We can observe' is an interesting phrase. I have observed many Christian societies (today as well as through history) that are insular, bigoted and oppressive. Others maybe not. But are you claiming that our society (UK, Europe, the West or however you define 'our society') is withering (I totally disagree with that opinion) because fewer than half of us hold supernatural beliefs and are card-carrying members of the (often wealthy, powerful and insidious) institutions that claim to champion those views?

You're not Truthpaste are you?

In fact the Romans were very tolerant and accepting of most religions in the Empire, and built joint temples for local idols which were often shared with their own. They took a very different and much harsher view of Christianity from the outset.

The word "our" refers here to Christians, so that's easily dealt with.

insular, bigoted and oppressive are all subjective terms. You may well regard things as insular ,bigoted or oppressive which others might not. Similarly, in fairness , "low practises " is a subjective term , and I expect I regard some things as such which you regard as quite wholesome and acceptable.

These are personal choices, and you are quite free to make your own. I would say that anyone's choices will have consequences, but you clearly reject that idea given your comments about "supernatural beliefs ".

Now, given that I am only truthfully answering the question posed in the OP , I'm hardly enforcing my beliefs upon you and,whilst I'd be delighted for you to find the truth of Christianity, I'm not going after anyone in the way that you seem to be doing.

If we can extrapolate the few points of yours I've read , I expect you'll be quite left wing and convinced about many things which I would reject because I've found that you can usually package these various beliefs together as being counter arguments against the plain truth, and persuasions to disregard the nature of the world in favour of some superficially more attractive version in which you can do what you like. Your choice entirely , as I've said, but do try and understand that you're practising a religion yourself because if I'm right about your general views , that'd tick all the boxes for a religion.

Last thing about the truth, well in fact the truth is very important to me.

[pomeroy]

In fact the Romans were very tolerant and accepting of most religions in the Empire, and built joint temples for local idols which were often shared with their own. They took a very different and much harsher view of Christianity from the outset.

The word "our" refers here to Christians, so that's easily dealt with.

insular, bigoted and oppressive are all subjective terms. You may well regard things as insular ,bigoted or oppressive which others might not. Similarly, in fairness , "low practises " is a subjective term , and I expect I regard some things as such which you regard as quite wholesome and acceptable.

These are personal choices, and you are quite free to make your own. I would say that anyone's choices will have consequences, but you clearly reject that idea given your comments about "supernatural beliefs ".

Now, given that I am only truthfully answering the question posed in the OP , I'm hardly enforcing my beliefs upon you and,whilst I'd be delighted for you to find the truth of Christianity, I'm not going after anyone in the way that you seem to be doing.

If we can extrapolate the few points of yours I've read , I expect you'll be quite left wing and convinced about many things which I would reject because I've found that you can usually package these various beliefs together as being counter arguments against the plain truth, and persuasions to disregard the nature of the world in favour of some superficially more attractive version in which you can do what you like. Your choice entirely , as I've said, but do try and understand that you're practising a religion yourself because if I'm right about your general views , that'd tick all the boxes for a religion.

Last thing about the truth, well in fact the truth is very important to me.

You refer to 'absolute truth' in one of your posts. How do you define this?

[goats]

I find it incredible that truths in physics, biology, chemistry, mathematics etc. are constantly being updated as research led discoveries shape our understanding of the universe yet religions are clinging on to m****cripts written thousands of years ago which, whilst containing excellent values (all our laws have Christian commandments at their heart), have not been updated any time recently by fresh religious visions, prophecy, miracles, visitations or suchlike which cannot be debunked with only minor investigation.

At the door of every church is a collection box/tray. They are a business which sells the afterlife. Something that comes with no guarantees, evidence or brochure. Each church is a franchise paying upwards to the top of the pyramid.

It used to exploit/oppress the ignorant in return for heavenly reward. Now it's a haven for the needy and easily led.
It used to be run by the power hungry and abusers. Now there's more women and minorities.

Eventually the business model will be dead.

But we know now all those things written 1000’s of years ago were mainly bull s, just to keep the people in order and to follow the church mantra. Hopefully in a few hundred years it will be talked about like cigarettes will be, ie extinct, with a more peaceful society that accepts others for what they are, not what archaic beliefs they hold.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

But we know now all those things written 1000’s of years ago were mainly bull s, just to keep the people in order and to follow the church mantra. Hopefully in a few hundred years it will be talked about like cigarettes will be, ie extinct, with a more peaceful society that accepts others for what they are, not what archaic beliefs they hold.

Most religions contain stories from preceding religions. It's merely folklore. And do you ever wonder why no-one believes in Greek and Roman gods anymore? The major Abrahamist religions are quite new in the great scheme of things and thousands of gods were believed in before they came about. People tend to simply believe in a god that they are first introduced to wherever they are in the world - and whenever they happened to be living.

[Baloo]

In fact the Romans were very tolerant and accepting of most religions in the Empire, and built joint temples for local idols which were often shared with their own. They took a very different and much harsher view of Christianity from the outset.

The word "our" refers here to Christians, so that's easily dealt with.

insular, bigoted and oppressive are all subjective terms. You may well regard things as insular ,bigoted or oppressive which others might not. Similarly, in fairness , "low practises " is a subjective term , and I expect I regard some things as such which you regard as quite wholesome and acceptable.

These are personal choices, and you are quite free to make your own. I would say that anyone's choices will have consequences, but you clearly reject that idea given your comments about "supernatural beliefs ".

Now, given that I am only truthfully answering the question posed in the OP , I'm hardly enforcing my beliefs upon you and,whilst I'd be delighted for you to find the truth of Christianity, I'm not going after anyone in the way that you seem to be doing.

If we can extrapolate the few points of yours I've read , I expect you'll be quite left wing and convinced about many things which I would reject because I've found that you can usually package these various beliefs together as being counter arguments against the plain truth, and persuasions to disregard the nature of the world in favour of some superficially more attractive version in which you can do what you like. Your choice entirely , as I've said, but do try and understand that you're practising a religion yourself because if I'm right about your general views , that'd tick all the boxes for a religion.

Last thing about the truth, well in fact the truth is very important to me.

Being non-religious is not ‘doing what you like’. It’s actually quite possible for non-religious people to live a good life and to behave ethically just to make the most of the one life we have and not due to a fear of supernatural consequences.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

None of the arguements for the existence of God be they Ontological, Cosmological , St. Thomas Aquinas so called 'proofs' nor the modish Presuppositional Apologetics actually demonstrably prove,in any way, the existence of God but merely regress to a greater conundrum i.e. who or what created the Creator?.

I spoke to a Krishna priest here in India a few days ago and he confessed that he didn't know how many Hindu gods there are - as there are so many. It's amusing that people talk about 'God' where there have been thousands and thousands of them.

[bobh]

There's the old saying
"Never argue about Politics or religion - the other person will never change "

Interesting that politics and religion seem to generate the longest threads on a football forum.

[Wales-Bales]

Interested to hear what Wales-Bales' truth is.

When you separate fact from fiction, it can lead to a greater understanding of the world. Religion is not the only fiction, but people like to focus on it as it makes them feel smart when they declare to the world that god is not real. However, many facets of our life are not real, they are also fictions. In reality they are just stories, and people will argue about different versions of these stories. That's why I always focus on the storyteller, because it will tell you a lot about the story.

[Wales-Bales]

There's the old saying
"Never argue about Politics or religion - the other person will never change "

Interesting that politics and religion seem to generate the longest threads on a football forum.

Politics and religion are both fictions, as are most things in our life. The trick is to know what is real and what isn't.

[Wales-Bales]

But we know now all those things written 1000’s of years ago were mainly bull s, just to keep the people in order and to follow the church mantra. Hopefully in a few hundred years it will be talked about like cigarettes will be, ie extinct, with a more peaceful society that accepts others for what they are, not what archaic beliefs they hold.

And now politicians and laws keeps people in order. It's the same thing really

[William Treseder]

https://youtu.be/8r-e2NDSTuE
In a nutshell.

[Tuerto]

Being non-religious is not ‘doing what you like’. It’s actually quite possible for non-religious people to live a good life and to behave ethically just to make the most of the one life we have and not due to a fear of supernatural consequences.

All of the religious people i know aren't well behaved because they believe in god, infact sometimes they're not that well behaved, because they're just people who have faith, or use their faith when they need it most, in short, they're standard human beings like the rest of us and their religious beliefs aren't even discussed. The problem with debates like this is that there's a backhanded nod towards religious fanatics and those who hold the seats of power within the religious establishment, the extreme elements within religion who have done some attrocious things in the name of god. By people referring to them sort of justifies their own misconceptions on people who have faith, and in some cases their hatred towards religion. Here's something, most religious people are moderate, plenty of them don't believe or certainly don't practise what is said in their holy book, how could they? I've no problem with people attacking the establishment or questioning their motives, but i do have an issue with the lazy misconceptions that some people hold (because it suits them to think that way) about people who have faith, which is exactly what they're doing when their attitudes are as intolerent and dissmissive as the religious figures that they so despise.

[Wales-Bales]

All of the religious people i know aren't well behaved because they believe in god, infact sometimes they're not that well behaved, because they're just people who have faith, or use their faith when they need it most, in short, they're standard human beings like the rest of us and their religious beliefs aren't even discussed. The problem with debates like this is that there's a backhanded nod towards religious fanatics and those who hold the seats of power within the religious establishment, the extreme elements within religion who have done some attrocious things in the name of god. By people referring to them sort of justifies their own misconceptions on people who have faith, and in some cases their hatred towards religion. Here's something, most religious people are moderate, plenty of them don't believe or certainly don't practise what is said in their holy book, how could they? I've no problem with people attacking the establishment or questioning their motives, but i do have an issue with the lazy misconceptions that some people hold (because it suits them to think that way) about people who have faith, which is exactly what they're doing when their attitudes are as intolerent and dissmissive as the religious figures that they so despise.

I'd say 6 out of the 10 commandments are very good, and if people adhered to them there wouldn't be a need for thousand of useless laws.

[Baloo]

All of the religious people i know aren't well behaved because they believe in god, infact sometimes they're not that well behaved, because they're just people who have faith, or use their faith when they need it most, in short, they're standard human beings like the rest of us and their religious beliefs aren't even discussed. The problem with debates like this is that there's a backhanded nod towards religious fanatics and those who hold the seats of power within the religious establishment, the extreme elements within religion who have done some attrocious things in the name of god. By people referring to them sort of justifies their own misconceptions on people who have faith, and in some cases their hatred towards religion. Here's something, most religious people are moderate, plenty of them don't believe or certainly don't practise what is said in their holy book, how could they? I've no problem with people attacking the establishment or questioning their motives, but i do have an issue with the lazy misconceptions that some people hold (because it suits them to think that way) about people who have faith, which is exactly what they're doing when their attitudes are as intolerent and dissmissive as the religious figures that they so despise.

I was replying to a post that talked about consequences and just doing what you like.

I’m not sure why you posted all that tbh. I know some liberal quakers and one of them is non-theist. I completely understand religion is a broad spectrum.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

How many Christians know how the 'books' in the current versions of the Bible were selected, when and by whom? And who wrote those individual books and when? And what books have been ignored and why?

[goats]

And now politicians and laws keeps people in order. It's the same thing really

They try too you mean, there are lots of people I’ve known who dont really follow any rules.....

[RonnieBird]

You refer to 'absolute truth' in one of your posts. How do you define this?

Don't recall using that expression but I expect you're right.

It's all about subjective versus objective reality.

In subjective reality what you believe is supposed to be your particular truth and thus according to some,as valid as any other truth.
" perception is reality" if you like.
This is the prevailing philosophy since it was honed to a fine art by the dreadful Bertrand Russel.

Objective reality calls for "Ontic trust" , although perhaps let's not go there right now. Suffice it to say that it rejects the idea that there are alternative truths - there may be alternative versions , but only one is actually true and all the rest are either lies or mistakes.

Now,in the same way that man is not in himself capable of good or evil, but rather chooses which of these forces to lean towards, he isn't capable of discerning the truth for himself using only his own mind or logic - again he instead has to choose between two alternative and opposing versions , and must use his other abilities to do this. The abilities I speak of are his spiritual aspect, and of course ,in the event that man rejects or disbelieves that he even has such a component, it cannot help him.

One side will tell you that there is no such thing as absolute truth and the other will tell you that there is. As in most areas of human existence ,you must choose which to believe and you have free will to do that.