Jewish group walks away from Labour

[RonnieBird]

Quote from anybody here saying Palestine is peaceful? The vast majority of Israeli and Palestinian people are peaceful, do you dispute that?

Yeah I probably would actually Eric. You've got to listen to the street there to see how impossible reconciliation seems. I'd say the majority of Palestinian Arabs and an increasing minority of Israelis display a horrible hatred of each other which has gone beyond the issues and beyond reason.
The Israeli government has tried everything to include the Arabs in a democratic society but they'll often say that nothing except every Jew dead would satisfy them. They're often quite simple people who are nonetheless fanatical in their cause to the point where they'll attack a modern military force with stones, or self detonate in a public place full of women and kids. They not infrequently display swastikas or pictures of Hitler during all this by the way.

They're not going to win this horrible endless war which they insist on waging, and I've often thought that the foreign anti Semitic politicians like George Galloway and Corbyn who encourage them to wage Jihad are their real enemies.
In Jordan and Egypt they've been much harsher on Palestinians than Israel , which has tried to engage them in democracy, but we don't hear complaints from these politicians about that, and that shows me that their motives aren't really humanitarian.
This troubled country can't ever find peace or reconciliation whilst one side is being driven by foreign race hate and encouragement of terrorism.

[RonnieBird]

That last video is presented in such a way as its propaganda as Ive heard it said that at least half a million Muslims fought for the Allies in ww2 and that Muslims were fully behind the Allies with only a small percentage of extremists for the other side, as regards the other side Germany was said to have had a big hand in the creation of Israel even without ww2 and that is because throughout the 1930's Hitlers Germany were big supporters of Zionism, Hamburg to Haifa line and all that, where the aims of both perversely coincided.

Ken Livingstone got into all sorts of trouble saying that stuff Trampie, but I take your point.
However, you missed the point a bit because it's not a question of Islam in general, but the fact that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and the local Arabs in what is now Israel were, and remain , empathetic with the Nazis in their wish to exterminate all Jews.
In turn, some modern socialists and some in this thread are empathetic with them.

Unless they're so stupid that they don't know all this, we must conclude that there's something nasty and unsaid lurking in their minds.

[trampie09]

Ken Livingstone got into all sorts of trouble saying that stuff Trampie, but I take your point.
However, you missed the point a bit because it's not a question of Islam in general, but the fact that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and the local Arabs in what is now Israel were, and remain , empathetic with the Nazis in their wish to exterminate all Jews.
In turn, some modern socialists and some in this thread are empathetic with them.

Unless they're so stupid that they don't know all this, we must conclude that there's something nasty and unsaid lurking in their minds.

What they did to Red Ken and others is awful and it does the Jewish cause no good at all imho and seems to be going on all the time, I think it was something like 15% of the German Jewish population that left Germany for Palestine in the preceding years leading up to WW2 all this against our will, we ran the place it was our mandate and the Germans and German Jews were evading our gun boats to break our blockade.

[trampie09]

https://twitter.com/NayHeller/status...15315851128832
https://twitter.com/rmisamson/status...70646841794560

[trampie09]

https://twitter.com/andrewfeinstein/...54916636897280

[jon1959]

https://twitter.com/NayHeller/status...15315851128832
https://twitter.com/rmisamson/status...70646841794560

I think I met Tom Heller a few years ago when he was a Foxhill GP and i worked for Housing.

[RonnieBird]

I think I met Tom Heller a few years ago when he was a Foxhill GP and i worked for Housing.

A fantastic claim !

[life on mars]

I think I met Tom Heller a few years ago when he was a Foxhill GP and i worked for Housing.

Congratulations

[jon1959]

A fantastic claim !

I am very sorry that Tom Heller is not a President, just a normal GP. Still, a good man and well worth knowing.

[jon1959]

Congratulations

Thank you very much. Always nice to rub shoulders with good people who talk sense. I recommend it!

[RonnieBird]

It is a fantastic thing to see how the mass of the British people are gradually forming a human fortification against Labour and the possibility of an anti Semitic madman in No 10 !
Every day reinforcements join the wall of resistance and every day there's a new story on the subject.

They shall Never prevail !

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ailure-combat/

"authors John Le Carré, William Boyd and Fay Weldon are among 24 public figures to publicly declare that they will not vote for Jeremy Corbyn because of Labour’s anti-semitism.

The 24 - who also include historians Antony Beevor, Tom Holland and Dan Snow as well as actors Simon Callow and Joanna Lumley and author Frederick Forsyth - accuse Mr Corbyn of being “steeped in association with anti-semitism.”

Despite some among the 24 holding strong pro-Remain views, they write that ignoring anti-semitism “because Brexit looms larger is to declare that anti-Jewish prejudice is a price worth paying for a Labour government.”

[Eric Cartman]

It is a fantastic thing to see how the mass of the British people are gradually forming a human fortification against Labour and the possibility of an anti Semitic madman in No 10 !
Every day reinforcements join the wall of resistance and every day there's a new story on the subject.

They shall Never prevail !

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ailure-combat/

"authors John Le Carré, William Boyd and Fay Weldon are among 24 public figures to publicly declare that they will not vote for Jeremy Corbyn because of Labour’s anti-semitism.

The 24 - who also include historians Antony Beevor, Tom Holland and Dan Snow as well as actors Simon Callow and Joanna Lumley and author Frederick Forsyth - accuse Mr Corbyn of being “steeped in association with anti-semitism.”

Despite some among the 24 holding strong pro-Remain views, they write that ignoring anti-semitism “because Brexit looms larger is to declare that anti-Jewish prejudice is a price worth paying for a Labour government.”

I think we both know what your usual reaction would be to a story like this if it wasn't about Corbyn/Labour. I imagine it would contain the terms 'out of touch', 'liberal elite', 'luvvies' and '**** off'.

[RonnieBird]

Well I don't know. You may be right I suppose, but these are the sort of people who are iconic to labour and its support base so I think it must be a significant blow to them

[jon1959]

Well I don't know. You may be right I suppose, but these are the sort of people who are iconic to labour and its support base so I think it must be a significant blow to them

I'm not sure how you can claim these people are 'iconic to Labour'. Of the 24 signatories about half are well known supporters of the Conservative and Lib Dem parties. It is damaging to Labour - that is the point - but unlikely to change many minds on the extent or significance of the problem of anti-semitism in the Labour Party, or of which party will provide the best government for the country.

[RonnieBird]

I hope you're wrong about that . I'm not sure that many would agree with you that anti semitism or persecution of the Jews is a price worth paying to see labour in government

[jon1959]

I hope you're wrong about that . I'm not sure that many would agree with you that anti semitism or persecution of the Jews is a price worth paying to see labour in government

I didn't say that. As you know.

I have always acknowledged that there are anti-semites and anti-semitic incidents or social media messages coming from Labour Party members. However I have also made clear my view (supported by the evidence - which you consistently ignore) that Labour has less of a problem with anti-semitism than other parties; support for anti-semitic views is decreasing amongst Labour supporters (not true of other parties); Labour has conducted a full internal investigation, changed its disciplinary processes and initiated a member education programme. It is also fully co-operating with the referral to the EHRC. Fewer than 400 members out of 550,000 have been charged with anti-semitism - and in some of those cases the charge was subsequently changed to 'bringing the party into disrepute' because the original charge was nonsense. A large number of anti-Zionist Jewish members have been charged.

I condemn the real incidents of anti-semitic hate or abuse (and there are too many of them - one is too many) but in many cases the allegations are cynical and dishonest. They have been rolled out as a weapon in the Labour civil war - the majority of the PLP and their media fans against Corbyn - and to silence criticism of the political ideology and actions of the Israeli state.

You are happy to perpetuate this and give it an extra spin when you can. You never respond to the details or the evidence around these allegations. You continue to drop anti-semitic tropes into your rants. You dismiss or downplay racism against people other than Jews. Your support for discriminatory and murderous actions by Israel against Palestinian civilians is no surprise. Israel has adopted apartheid - in practice since the early years of the state and in law since 2018. It is consistently breaching international law and by stealing more and more arab land making the two state solution to the conflict impossible. There are certainly elements of liberal democracy in Israel (as there were in apartheid South Africa) but that is only part of the story. I would rather live in Israel (where parts of the press and civil society are more open and honest than in the UK) than Saudi Arabia or Iran - but don't pretend that arab Palestinians or arab Israeli citizens have equal rights; they don't.

And set against the British Labour Party in this election are other parties who have not been subjected to forensic examination of their record and views. You have argued for a Tory vote to 'get Brexit done' but seem unconcerned that the Tories are riddled with more racism than any other major party (excluding Brexit and UKIP). I'm not sure that many would agree with you that anti-semitism, islamophobia and the racism that led to the Windrush scandal is a price worth paying to see the Tories in government again.

[trampie09]

I didn't say that. As you know.

I have always acknowledged that there are anti-semites and anti-semitic incidents or social media messages coming from Labour Party members. However I have also made clear my view (supported by the evidence - which you consistently ignore) that Labour has less of a problem with anti-semitism than other parties; support for anti-semitic views is decreasing amongst Labour supporters (not true of other parties); Labour has conducted a full internal investigation, changed its disciplinary processes and initiated a member education programme. It is also fully co-operating with the referral to the EHRC. Fewer than 400 members out of 550,000 have been charged with anti-semitism - and in some of those cases the charge was subsequently changed to 'bringing the party into disrepute' because the original charge was nonsense. A large number of anti-Zionist Jewish members have been charged.

I condemn the real incidents of anti-semitic hate or abuse (and there are too many of them - one is too many) but in many cases the allegations are cynical and dishonest. They have been rolled out as a weapon in the Labour civil war - the majority of the PLP and their media fans against Corbyn - and to silence criticism of the political ideology and actions of the Israeli state.

You are happy to perpetuate this and give it an extra spin when you can. You never respond to the details or the evidence around these allegations. You continue to drop anti-semitic tropes into your rants. You dismiss or downplay racism against people other than Jews. Your support for discriminatory and murderous actions by Israel against Palestinian civilians is no surprise. Israel has adopted apartheid - in practice since the early years of the state and in law since 2018. It is consistently breaching international law and by stealing more and more arab land making the two state solution to the conflict impossible. There are certainly elements of liberal democracy in Israel (as there were in apartheid South Africa) but that is only part of the story. I would rather live in Israel (where parts of the press and civil society are more open and honest than in the UK) than Saudi Arabia or Iran - but don't pretend that arab Palestinians or arab Israeli citizens have equal rights; they don't.

And set against the British Labour Party in this election are other parties who have not been subjected to forensic examination of their record and views. You have argued for a Tory vote to 'get Brexit done' but seem unconcerned that the Tories are riddled with more racism than any other major party (excluding Brexit and UKIP). I'm not sure that many would agree with you that anti-semitism, islamophobia and the racism that led to the Windrush scandal is a price worth paying to see the Tories in government again.

Top post yet again jon1959

[RonnieBird]

I didn't say that. As you know.

I have always acknowledged that there are anti-semites and anti-semitic incidents or social media messages coming from Labour Party members. However I have also made clear my view (supported by the evidence - which you consistently ignore) that Labour has less of a problem with anti-semitism than other parties; support for anti-semitic views is decreasing amongst Labour supporters (not true of other parties); Labour has conducted a full internal investigation, changed its disciplinary processes and initiated a member education programme. It is also fully co-operating with the referral to the EHRC. Fewer than 400 members out of 550,000 have been charged with anti-semitism - and in some of those cases the charge was subsequently changed to 'bringing the party into disrepute' because the original charge was nonsense. A large number of anti-Zionist Jewish members have been charged.

I condemn the real incidents of anti-semitic hate or abuse (and there are too many of them - one is too many) but in many cases the allegations are cynical and dishonest. They have been rolled out as a weapon in the Labour civil war - the majority of the PLP and their media fans against Corbyn - and to silence criticism of the political ideology and actions of the Israeli state.

You are happy to perpetuate this and give it an extra spin when you can. You never respond to the details or the evidence around these allegations. You continue to drop anti-semitic tropes into your rants. You dismiss or downplay racism against people other than Jews. Your support for discriminatory and murderous actions by Israel against Palestinian civilians is no surprise. Israel has adopted apartheid - in practice since the early years of the state and in law since 2018. It is consistently breaching international law and by stealing more and more arab land making the two state solution to the conflict impossible. There are certainly elements of liberal democracy in Israel (as there were in apartheid South Africa) but that is only part of the story. I would rather live in Israel (where parts of the press and civil society are more open and honest than in the UK) than Saudi Arabia or Iran - but don't pretend that arab Palestinians or arab Israeli citizens have equal rights; they don't.

And set against the British Labour Party in this election are other parties who have not been subjected to forensic examination of their record and views. You have argued for a Tory vote to 'get Brexit done' but seem unconcerned that the Tories are riddled with more racism than any other major party (excluding Brexit and UKIP). I'm not sure that many would agree with you that anti-semitism, islamophobia and the racism that led to the Windrush scandal is a price worth paying to see the Tories in government again.

You entirely miss the point, and have done from the outset.
We would disagree about the level of anti semitism in labour, but the point is that labour are now perceived by a great many independent voters, Jewish people generally and a concerned international audience as dangerously anti Semitic and the question is whether that is something they can get over in this and future elections .

[life on mars]

The trouble with antisemitism is the jews are attacked by so many parts of society:

Far Right
Far Left
Extreme Islam .

In every country.

It beggars belief .

[jon1959]

You entirely miss the point, and have done from the outset.
We would disagree about the level of anti semitism in labour, but the point is that labour are now perceived by a great many independent voters, Jewish people generally and a concerned international audience as dangerously anti Semitic and the question is whether that is something they can get over in this and future elections .

I haven't missed that point. I agree that is the perception. It isn't the only 'point' you have made in this and other threads, though.

[RonnieBird]

Of course I'm dissapointed that I've failed to convert you, but I'm glad that you've read through them all carefully enough to decide.

[the other bob wilson]

For most of my lifetime, the Labour party would be walking this election given what the country has gone through since 2010, but the modern version of the party has proved to be a poor opposition and, although its leader came alive and was effective in the 2017 election, he has been an uninspiring and unpopular potential Prime Minister for the large majority of his leadership.

Given the man currently Prime Minister and the nature of this version of the party he leads, I really want to vote Labour on 12 December and am hoping for something to happen in the next three and a half weeks which would bring me back into the fold, but the trouble is articles like this one tend to resonate with me - I don't see a party out there which feels like home to me at the moment.

https://capx.co/voting-labour-is-not...nconscionable/

[trampie09]

For most of my lifetime, the Labour party would be walking this election given what the country has gone through since 2010, but the modern version of the party has proved to be a poor opposition and, although its leader came alive and was effective in the 2017 election, he has been an uninspiring and unpopular potential Prime Minister for the large majority of his leadership.

Given the man currently Prime Minister and the nature of this version of the party he leads, I really want to vote Labour on 12 December and am hoping for something to happen in the next three and a half weeks which would bring me back into the fold, but the trouble is articles like this one tend to resonate with me - I don't see a party out there which feels like home to me at the moment.

https://capx.co/voting-labour-is-not...nconscionable/

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/0...-anti-semitic/
Corby saved a Jewish cemetery from being built on, Margaret Hodge was head of the council , the revered leading Jewish historian says Corbyn is not anti-semitic

[Eric Cartman]

For most of my lifetime, the Labour party would be walking this election given what the country has gone through since 2010, but the modern version of the party has proved to be a poor opposition and, although its leader came alive and was effective in the 2017 election, he has been an uninspiring and unpopular potential Prime Minister for the large majority of his leadership.

Given the man currently Prime Minister and the nature of this version of the party he leads, I really want to vote Labour on 12 December and am hoping for something to happen in the next three and a half weeks which would bring me back into the fold, but the trouble is articles like this one tend to resonate with me - I don't see a party out there which feels like home to me at the moment.

https://capx.co/voting-labour-is-not...nconscionable/

Just a word of warning. Capx is owned/run by a conservative think tank that was founded by Margaret Thatcher, the unsurprisingly ambiguously named centre for policy studies. I haven't read the article so can't comment on this individual piece but thought that was an important piece of information.

[the other bob wilson]

Just a word of warning. Capx is owned/run by a conservative think tank that was founded by Margaret Thatcher, the unsurprisingly ambiguously named centre for policy studies. I haven't read the article so can't comment on this individual piece but thought that was an important piece of information.

That would set alarm bells ringing for me normally and I suppose you need to check these days to see if the writer exists! However, whether it was genuine or not, the article struck a chord with me and it wouldn't have done that if I didn't have quite a few doubts about Labour.