Lives vs. livelihoods & a gutted UK economy

[Organ Morgan.]

I've been persuaded that protecting and prolonging the lives of those most susceptible to COVID-19 and other coronaviruses is more important than returning to how we used to live and for the great majority of us we must reluctantly accept that we will have to adapt to a much lower standard of living going forward until effective vaccines are developed to combat the threat of any coronavirus killing Britons prematurely.

Continuing with the necessary restrictions the government introduced during March is essential to save British lives. Social distancing is the most critical feature used to limit the spread of this COVID-19 outbreak. It has to be retained as a permanent feature in the months and years ahead but must be hugely enlarged and rigidly enforced.

Millions of citizens will become permanently unemployed because a greatly damaged economy will be unable to generate enough employment opportunities to satisfy demand. That and a decline in the disposable income of the great majority of the rest of the population will almost certainly result in social tensions leading to a burgeoning crime rate borne of desperate people resorting to street muggings, home burglaries, looting commercial premises along with participating in large scale public disorder and rioting.

A national mandatory photo ID scheme is desperately required to help meet the challenges of locking down millions of people to a higher degree than what we witness today. By this Christmas, perhaps, all citizens aged 10 and above will have to carry a photo ID card in a public place and produce it at the request of a lawful authority. A suitably punitive fine to ensure most adults and their aged 10-18 children, for which their parent/s or legal guardian would be liable to pay, would ensure a high compliancy rate.

The state should embark on an immediate police recruitment drive to bolster numbers to meet and contain the very real threat of this country descending into chaos. Militarise that force by issuing every officer with a handgun. The number of their auxiliary colleagues (PCSOs) must also be doubled or tripled as a matter of urgency. Supply them with tasers and the authority to use them. In addition, recruit many thousands of social distance monitors whose task it will be to identify and fine those who commit flagrant breaches of life saving rules. Current penalties are a joke; increase the fine to £1,000 that would be reduced to £500 if paid in full within 7 days. For those who don't then apply an attachment order to their income, whether it be wages or benefits, in order that they are forced to pay at source at a set amount per week. For those who it might be trickier to collect from - some self-employed, for example - then seize their identifiable assets to match the sum outstanding, else imprison them as a last resort.

An acceptance that pubs, clubs, restaurants and cafes may never reopen and that attending any occasion where large groups of people were allowed to gather, such as sporting and musical events, are worth sacrificing to help protect the health of fellow Britons then the easier it will be to adjust to a future and enduring new normal.

[Veg1960]

I've been persuaded that protecting and prolonging the lives of those most susceptible to COVID-19 and other coronaviruses is more important than returning to how we used to live and for the great majority of us we must reluctantly accept that we will have to adapt to a much lower standard of living going forward until effective vaccines are developed to combat the threat of any coronavirus killing Britons prematurely.

Continuing with the necessary restrictions the government introduced during March is essential to save British lives. Social distancing is the most critical feature used to limit the spread of this COVID-19 outbreak. It has to be retained as a permanent feature in the months and years ahead but must be hugely enlarged and rigidly enforced.

Millions of citizens will become permanently unemployed because a greatly damaged economy will be unable to generate enough employment opportunities to satisfy demand. That and a decline in the disposable income of the great majority of the rest of the population will almost certainly result in social tensions leading to a burgeoning crime rate borne of desperate people resorting to street muggings, home burglaries, looting commercial premises along with participating in large scale public disorder and rioting.

A national mandatory photo ID scheme is desperately required to help meet the challenges of locking down millions of people to a higher degree than what we witness today. By this Christmas, perhaps, all citizens aged 10 and above will have to carry a photo ID card in a public place and produce it at the request of a lawful authority. A suitably punitive fine to ensure most adults and their aged 10-18 children, for which their parent/s or legal guardian would be liable to pay, would ensure a high compliancy rate.

The state should embark on an immediate police recruitment drive to bolster numbers to meet and contain the very real threat of this country descending into chaos. Militarise that force by issuing every officer with a handgun. The number of their auxiliary colleagues (PCSOs) must also be doubled or tripled as a matter of urgency. Supply them with tasers and the authority to use them. In addition, recruit many thousands of social distance monitors whose task it will be to identify and fine those who commit flagrant breaches of life saving rules. Current penalties are a joke; increase the fine to £1,000 that would be reduced to £500 if paid in full within 7 days. For those who don't then apply an attachment order to their income, whether it be wages or benefits, in order that they are forced to pay at source at a set amount per week. For those who it might be trickier to collect from - some self-employed, for example - then seize their identifiable assets to match the sum outstanding, else imprison them as a last resort.

An acceptance that pubs, clubs, restaurants and cafes may never reopen and that attending any occasion where large groups of people were allowed to gather, such as sporting and musical events, are worth sacrificing to help protect the health of fellow Britons then the easier it will be to adjust to a future and enduring new normal.

As satire goes, your last effort was much better.

[lardy]

As satire goes, your last effort was much better.

Which paragraph did you get to? I started skimming in 3 then couldn't be bothered.

[Organ Morgan.]

Britons with COVID-19 deaths will have increased by 50% from last Sunday's total when numbers who have died during the past 24 hours are added later today.

The message is simply not getting through, or is being ignored, as far too many casually fail to adhere to the two metre social distancing requirement. There's not enough police/PCSOs on the streets. I didn't spot any on a jaunt to 'Diff on Friday. Caught a bus for the return journey which quickly filled to ensure it was impossible to observe it. I'd say maybe 10 to 12 passengers maximum could have travelled within the guidelines instead of the 20-25 who were actually aboard throughout those 20 minutes. I'm in two minds whether to report the driver as I believe he should be sanctioned in some way for allowing too many to board it. The Chinese demonstrated how to severely curtail fatalities while here the state and its agents remain half-arsed as is evident by 15K+ British deaths.

[life on mars]

Britons with COVID-19 deaths will have increased by 50% from last Sunday's total when numbers who have died during the past 24 hours are added later today.

The message is simply not getting through, or is being ignored, as far too many casually fail to adhere to the two metre social distancing requirement. There's not enough police/PCSOs on the streets. I didn't spot any on a jaunt to 'Diff on Friday. Caught a bus for the return journey which quickly filled to ensure it was impossible to observe it. I'd say maybe 10 to 12 passengers maximum could have travelled within the guidelines instead of the 20-25 who were actually aboard throughout those 20 minutes. I'm in two minds whether to report the driver as I believe he should be sanctioned in some way for allowing too many to board it. The Chinese demonstrated how to severely curtail fatalities while here the state and its agents remain half-arsed as is evident by 15K+ British deaths.

Theres a lot of folk who just don't care , and sadly they are running the risks for those that do .

[ToTaL ITK]

you can rebuild an economy you can't rebuild a lost loved one.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Some people question the economic cost of the lockdown compared to simply permitting free movement but if people end up dropping like flies it's going to have considerable economic disbenefits too.

[trampie09]

There has always been a price put on people's lives one way or another.

[ToTaL ITK]

There has always been a price put on people's lives one way or another.

I agree in that would fit war or natural disaster.
But here we have been unprepared and that has been the cause of needless deaths

[Wales-Bales]

I vote to cancel the future, even if it saves just one life it will be worth it.

[CardiffIrish2]

I vote to cancel the future, even if it saves just one life it will be worth it.

I think you should lead by example and get out to work.

That will show those globalists, leftists, remainers, Democrats etc etc etc what a fine example of libertarianism you are eh?

Of course if you end up coughing your guts up on a ventilator it will all have been worth it in the name of freedom and free speech.

[Organ Morgan.]

I vote to cancel the future, even if it saves just one life it will be worth it.

I looked at the official stats last week for British deaths with seasonal flu strains during the past five years. They varied from a low 1,400+ in one year to 27K in another for an average over that span of 17K per annum.

I don't doubt that if the measures we have is situ today to battle COVID-19 had been adopted in those years prior then that 17K average would have been considerably lower. I acknowledge the British economy would have become a hollowed out wreck and consequently the vast majority of us would only be able to afford the most basic necessities and that trips to pubs, football matches and much more besides would already be a distant memory but nevertheless worthwhile to save British lives.

The ordinary common cold, another coronavirus, which there remains no vaccine for, can prove deadly for those with advanced COPD and other lung diseases. Now that most citizens accept the principle that people's health outweigh economic concerns then it would criminal should the government lift restrictions before vaccines are available for all coronaviruses.

[lardy]

I looked at the official stats last week for British deaths with seasonal flu strains during the past five years. They varied from a low 1,400+ in one year to 27K in another for an average over that span of 17K per annum.

I don't doubt that if the measures we have is situ today to battle COVID-19 had been adopted in those years prior then that 17K average would have been considerably lower. I acknowledge the British economy would have become a hollowed out wreck and consequently the vast majority of us would only be able to afford the most basic necessities and that trips to pubs, football matches and much more besides would already be a distant memory but nevertheless worthwhile to save British lives.

The ordinary common cold, another coronavirus, which there remains no vaccine for, can prove deadly for those with advanced COPD and other lung diseases. Now that most citizens accept the principle that people's health outweigh economic concerns then it would criminal should the government lift restrictions before vaccines are available for all coronaviruses.

How come you're hiding on the politics forum, Organ? Did your brief outing on the main board leave you shaken?

So the worst flu year in the last five years was 27,000 deaths. That's in a year. Covid-19 has killed 16,000 in less than six weeks (excluding the many who have died in care homes).

Concentrating on the death rate was a good tactic earlier - not so much now.

[Rjk]

I looked at the official stats last week for British deaths with seasonal flu strains during the past five years. They varied from a low 1,400+ in one year to 27K in another for an average over that span of 17K per annum.

I don't doubt that if the measures we have is situ today to battle COVID-19 had been adopted in those years prior then that 17K average would have been considerably lower. I acknowledge the British economy would have become a hollowed out wreck and consequently the vast majority of us would only be able to afford the most basic necessities and that trips to pubs, football matches and much more besides would already be a distant memory but nevertheless worthwhile to save British lives.

The ordinary common cold, another coronavirus, which there remains no vaccine for, can prove deadly for those with advanced COPD and other lung diseases. Now that most citizens accept the principle that people's health outweigh economic concerns then it would criminal should the government lift restrictions before vaccines are available for all coronaviruses.

When was the last time the common cold overran the capacity of the NHS?

[trampie09]

I agree in that would fit war or natural disaster.
But here we have been unprepared and that has been the cause of needless deaths

It is just not war and natural disasters, I have heard it said they put a price on medical treatment, they might be capable of saving somebody but choose not too because of the cost, as regards airlines, ships, trains, cars etc they might work out the cost of saving a life (say on average one life a year per their calculations) but the cost would run into millions and millions so they don't do it, say for arguments sake replace a level crossing in a lonely place in West Wales with a tunnel or a flyover, it might be estimated they would save a life every quarter of a century or so but the cost would be so great they won't do it, there has always been a cost in some shape or another put on lives and I say that as a Socialist that would tax people until the pips squeaked to get a better, safer, fairer and more equally society.

[Organ Morgan.]

How come you're hiding on the politics forum, Organ? Did your brief outing on the main board leave you shaken?

So the worst flu year in the last five years was 27,000 deaths. That's in a year. Covid-19 has killed 16,000 in less than six weeks (excluding the many who have died in care homes).

Concentrating on the death rate was a good tactic earlier - not so much now.

I posted on the main forum yesterday.

Here's a video of some no nonsense British policing that all right-minded citizens will applaud: https://twitter.com/simonchilds13/st...18305889013760

As the sergeant correctly stated to the lunatic, "you're killing people!"

We need more like that officer, umpteen thousands of them to crackdown hard on anyone who doesn't care about saving British lives.

I'd welcome the introduction of Martial Law, wholesale curfews and anything else the government may deem necessary to enforce much greater compliancy.

How about you?

[lardy]

I posted on the main forum yesterday.

Here's a video of some no nonsense British policing that all right-minded citizens will applaud: https://twitter.com/simonchilds13/st...18305889013760

As the sergeant correctly stated to the lunatic, "you're killing people!"

We need more like that officer, umpteen thousands of them to crackdown hard on anyone who doesn't care about saving British lives.

I'd welcome the introduction of Martial Law, wholesale curfews and anything else the government may deem necessary to enforce much greater compliancy.

How about you?

Changing the subject. Always a sure sign that someone hasn't really got a decent reply.

The post you quoted was about death rates. You were comparing annual figures for one virus with pretty much monthly figures of another.

[Wales-Bales]

Changing the subject. Always a sure sign that someone hasn't really got a decent reply.

It's better than avoiding the subject, which is what you do

[lardy]

Some of Organ's like minded brethren.

Meanwhile in Dickville. pic.twitter.com/fFFWzNl4Ju

— cluedont (@cluedont) April 20, 2020

[Organ Morgan.]

Two pluses from the lockdown measures has seen a plummeting crime rate and far fewer vehicles on the roads pumping out their poisonous fumes that pollute people's lungs and harm the environment.

I'd raise Fuel Duty and other taxes across the board to help pay for furloughing workers and fill the gap in reduced state revenue streams. Cutting benefit payments for all recipients except the disabled, their registered carers and State Pensioners would also save vast sums. Also, means-test Winter Fuel Payment; it really is ludicrous millionaires get to collect that handout.

Some of the reforms could fund a deserved substantial - 33% or more - pay increase for all front line NHS staff. A 5% VAT increase should easily cover that extra expense and I'm sure most citizens would gladly dig deeper into their pockets to reward them.

[trampie09]

Two pluses from the lockdown measures has seen a plummeting crime rate and far fewer vehicles on the roads pumping out their poisonous fumes that pollute people's lungs and harm the environment.

I'd raise Fuel Duty and other taxes across the board to help pay for furloughing workers and fill the gap in reduced state revenue streams. Cutting benefit payments for all recipients except the disabled, their registered carers and State Pensioners would also save vast sums. Also, means-test Winter Fuel Payment; it really is ludicrous millionaires get to collect that handout.

Some of the reforms could fund a deserved substantial - 33% or more - pay increase for all front line NHS staff. A 5% VAT increase should easily cover that extra expense and I'm sure most citizens would gladly dig deeper into their pockets to reward them.

VAT is a tax that effects the poor greatly, there are other tax raising avenues that could be used that would not effect the poor to the same degree.

[Organ Morgan.]

Aye, VAT is second only to inflation in the regressiveness stakes. Parliament's red team, who are widely believed to be the poor's friend, have a long history of kicking them in the nuts using both those taxes with the same enthusiasm as the blue team have.

Staying with the poorest, another plus from this COVID-19 outbreak is that thousands of formerly homeless people are today living in hotels and guest houses.

[trampie09]

Aye, VAT is second only to inflation in the regressiveness stakes. Parliament's red team, who are widely believed to be the poor's friend, have a long history of kicking them in the nuts using both those taxes with the same enthusiasm as the blue team have.

Staying with the poorest, another plus from this COVID-19 outbreak is that thousands of formerly homeless people are today living in hotels and guest houses.

That's not the full story it's the Conservative and Unionist party that is historically known for hiking VAT rates, Labour less so.

[Organ Morgan.]

Yes, you're correct - Tories have a worse record but not by much. Just had a gander at the history of Purchase Tax and VAT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-...United_Kingdom

I see from 1979 to 1997 the blues more than doubled VAT from 8% to 17.5%, with predictable howls of protest from the red benches, but when the reds returned to power in 1997 they retained that 17.5% rate for the next 11 years other than for some minor changes to reduce VAT on leccy and gas bills plus a few other things.

[trampie09]

Reading that article I would say the Conservative and Unionist party is a lot worse for VAT charges than Labour.
I'm all for uping taxes just not VAT as it's a tax on the poor, in theory you would expect old Labour to have the same thoughts on the topic as me but Labour has been overrun by Red Tories so who knows what they think these days.