UK Covid-19 death figures

[Croesy Blue]

My original comments stemmed from the fact that people disagreed with my comments that the Senedd is solely responsible for healthcare in Wales, therefore don't blame UK gov for the mess we are in in Wales with very high incidence, general lack of testing, variable tracking, escalating variances with other home nations etc

The 2020 Covid Act is a temporary UK wide act that sorts out some of the nitty gritty around the handling of the pandemic in the UK.

The main Act in Wales and England for control of infectious diseases is the Public Health Act 1984. It has wide ranging powers that the Senedd could have acted upon way ahead of the March lockdown. For example control of travel, airports and ports, control of schools, and just about anything else needed to halt the spread of an infectious disease.

What we did in Wales was go along with a UK wide uniform approach that initially was one of 'herd immunity', then, and some say too late, the lockdown
I understand that going it alone with a lockdown may not have been that effective,( although we seem to be doing just that now compared to our near neighbours), and the issue of finance must have influenced things.

But there was plenty we could have done under the 1984 act without closing down industry but we didn't. Right or wrong is not what Im directly concerned about. My message all along has been that Healthcare is a devolved matter and the Senedd is solely responsible for its actions. The other home countries Im sure discuss and influence our Welsh healthcare politicians and professional advisors, but the responsibility and consequences for actions rest with the Senedd

No it stemmed from you saying we can’t attribute blame to the U.K. government for the deaths in wales.

[lisvaneblue]

And there it is, the point where your argument about how blame is apportioned between Welsh and UK Governments completely falls down. In one of your replies, you talked of small European nations who had gone it alone in taking on the virus, but, assuming your intention was to show the Welsh Government in a bad light in comparison to them, you're indulging in the same sort of comparing apples with oranges argument that UK Government apologists apply to anyone who makes direct comparisons between UK statistics and those of other European countries.

The devolution we have is not on a par with those countries you seek to compare us to - Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are in a kind of halfway house, they have some freedom to do what they wish, but not complete freedom. As I said in a post I did about this time yesterday in this thread, it would be a different matter if Wales had full devolution, but it doesn't and so allowances have to be made for that.

You know my views...ie healthcare is devolved, its not a halfway house, its devolved just as Education is. Please tell me what authority Westminster has in law to make decisions about the healthcare of the people in Wales.

And when it comes to small Europen countries that are members of the EU, many would say that they are not truly independent because of the EU regulations that they have to follow. But that's a different argument

[lisvaneblue]

No it stemmed from you saying we can’t attribute blame to the U.K. government for the deaths in wales.

That's splitting hairs, you get my drift. If the Senedd is responsible for calling the healthcare shots, its responsible for the consequences

[the other bob wilson]

You know my views...ie healthcare is devolved, its not a halfway house, its devolved just as Education is. Please tell me what authority Westminster has in law to make decisions about the healthcare of the people in Wales.

And when it comes to small Europen countries that are members of the EU, many would say that they are not truly independent because of the EU regulations that they have to follow. But that's a different argument

Hang on, you're getting into real hair splitting territory now. This should be a straightforward matter, is Wales "devolved" in the same manner as, say, Luxembourg, Malta and Iceland are? I think I'm right in saying they all have full autonomy in a way that we don't.

[Croesy Blue]

That's splitting hairs, you get my drift. If the Senedd is responsible for calling the healthcare shots, its responsible for the consequences

But the majority of deaths were caused by lock down not happening early enough.

Even knowing that fact you think we can’t blame the U.K. government?

[trampie09]

If something is devolved it means...and Im sure you know this... that the responsibility has been passed on...ie to the Senedd

If the Senedd chooses to be led by England then it does not take away the fact that the Senedd holds total responsibility for our healthcare. Nothing to do with England or the rest of the UK

So I think it may not be me that is mind numbingly stupid. Don't let our Welsh politicians fob you off by thinking that Westminster is somehow to share the blame for the mess it has got us in.

Crumbs off the table, hordes of old English immigrants have flooded the Welsh NHS and this is not really financially accounted for by the UK Government, we should have more money from the UK Government to deal with the white flight immigration crisis that causes a huge strain on our services.

[lisvaneblue]

But the majority of deaths were caused by lock down not happening early enough.

Even knowing that fact you think we can’t blame the U.K. government?

Wales decided to go along with a uniform UK approach that started as one of herd immunity. It could have done things differently re the 1984 act, but choose to stay with a UK approach.

[Croesy Blue]

Wales decided to go along with a uniform UK approach that started as one of herd immunity. It could have done things differently re the 1984 act, but choose to stay with a UK approach.

But it couldn't lock down until the UK did right?

[lisvaneblue]

But it couldn't lock down until the UK did right?

Off the top of my head..it could have starting testing earlier, ( WHO was shouting test, test, test), It have quarantined all Wales residents whop arrived at UK airports, It could have isolated Care Homes, It could have been first in the queue for PPE.... Point is we decided to go along with a UK approach. Our decision, our responsibility

[Croesy Blue]

Off the top of my head..it could have starting testing earlier, ( WHO was shouting test, test, test), It have quarantined all Wales residents whop arrived at UK airports, It could have isolated Care Homes, It could have been first in the queue for PPE.... Point is we decided to go along with a UK approach. Our decision, our responsibility

So the Welsh Government have done worse than the U.K. government then?

[goats]

They couldn’t have, which is why he ignored when I asked.

This state was caused by a stupidly late lockdown, I don’t think wales have been perfect but their message has been a lot more clear.

Hindsight and all that. No one seemed to care so much mid March, it just got very serious all of a sudden. Rugby and our match with Leeds was on until the last minute almost, some 45000 people left the uk to go ski ing in the alps mid March, all of which were pointless as all the slopes closed as they arrived....if the public were so adamant for a quicker lockdown we could have shouted about it then, but we didn’t at all.

[trampie09]

Wales decided to go along with a uniform UK approach that started as one of herd immunity. It could have done things differently re the 1984 act, but choose to stay with a UK approach.

Welsh rugby stopped the Wales v Scotland match the English led UK authorities wanted it played.

[trampie09]

Off the top of my head..it could have starting testing earlier, ( WHO was shouting test, test, test), It have quarantined all Wales residents whop arrived at UK airports, It could have isolated Care Homes, It could have been first in the queue for PPE.... Point is we decided to go along with a UK approach. Our decision, our responsibility

The English in the name of the UK stole our testing kits and PPE.

[Croesy Blue]

Hindsight and all that. No one seemed to care so much mid March, it just got very serious all of a sudden. Rugby and our match with Leeds was on until the last minute almost, some 45000 people left the uk to go ski ing in the alps mid March, all of which were pointless as all the slopes closed as they arrived....if the public were so adamant for a quicker lockdown we could have shouted about it then, but we didn’t at all.

We didn’t care much but we aren’t elected into highest office to make these decisions.

The Tory party were told to close pubs, restaurants and schools at the start of February.

The start of lockdown was as half arsed as can be even at the start. People were told to maybe stay home but pubs, gyms and restaurants stayed open for another 2 weeks.

[trampie09]

The English led Westminster Government pushed for herd immunity that seemed like something that could have come straight out of the Nazi playbook to me.

[Vindec]

The English in the name of the UK stole our testing kits and PPE.

That was a myth which at the time was designed to sidetrack the Welsh and Scottish Governments from criticism. There was nothing preventing other nations' governments from obtaining their own PPE but at the time the international market was such that demand far exceeded supply so Wales and Scotland were happy to leave it to the UK government to purchase and organise the distribution and to take the flak.

As for testing, the Welsh Government simply abandoned the testing target of 9000 as it had failed to provide the infrastructure to deal with anything like that number; it had nothing to do with stealing tests. Later the Chief Executive of Public Health Wales claimed not to have been advised by the Welsh Government of that target despite the fact it had been widely reported in the media. A shambles if ever there was one.

On PPE, Mark Drakeford, revealed that his administration's pandemic stockpile had from 2016 onwards failed to contain a single protective gown but that was contradictory to a statement to the Senedd by Vaughan Gething, who was asked whether the stockpile contained gowns, visors, swabs and body bags. He stated: 'All of those items were available in our pandemic stock.'

In fairness to both the English and Welsh governments PPE has a shelf life of only between 3-6 months and stockpiling, the warehousing needed and the frequent replacement requirements was not financially viable given the rarity of pandemics. (Apparently a 3 month supply of PPE for the UK would require 5 acres of warehousing.) But, in answer to the above statement, there was no Welsh PPE for the English to steal and the abysmal record of the Welsh Government on testing had absolutely nothing to do with testing kits being stolen.

In the interest of balance, if Welsh PPE and testing kits were being stolen, please comment further. I would be fascinated to read that.

Let's face it all governments have questions to answer when this pandemic is over but I doubt whether the stealing of PPE and other equipment by the English will be one of them.

[lisvaneblue]

Hang on, you're getting into real hair splitting territory now. This should be a straightforward matter, is Wales "devolved" in the same manner as, say, Luxembourg, Malta and Iceland are? I think I'm right in saying they all have full autonomy in a way that we don't.

Certain things are devolved. Two key ones are healthcare and education.We have full autonomy and responsibility for these

[The Lone Gunman]

I think it may not be me that is mind numbingly stupid. Don't let our Welsh politicians fob you off by thinking that Westminster is somehow to share the blame for the mess it has got us in.

Of course they share responsibility for this mess. If you genuinely believe otherwise, you're an idiot. It's no more complicated than that.

[Croesy Blue]

Of course they share responsibility for this mess. If you genuinely believe otherwise, you're an idiot. It's no more complicated than that.

Agreed how can anyone say the U.K. government share the blame?!

[Rjk]

Certain things are devolved. Two key ones are healthcare and education.We have full autonomy and responsibility for these

20200603_100847.jpg

[trampie09]

That was a myth which at the time was designed to sidetrack the Welsh and Scottish Governments from criticism. There was nothing preventing other nations' governments from obtaining their own PPE but at the time the international market was such that demand far exceeded supply so Wales and Scotland were happy to leave it to the UK government to purchase and organise the distribution and to take the flak.

As for testing, the Welsh Government simply abandoned the testing target of 9000 as it had failed to provide the infrastructure to deal with anything like that number; it had nothing to do with stealing tests. Later the Chief Executive of Public Health Wales claimed not to have been advised by the Welsh Government of that target despite the fact it had been widely reported in the media. A shambles if ever there was one.

On PPE, Mark Drakeford, revealed that his administration's pandemic stockpile had from 2016 onwards failed to contain a single protective gown but that was contradictory to a statement to the Senedd by Vaughan Gething, who was asked whether the stockpile contained gowns, visors, swabs and body bags. He stated: 'All of those items were available in our pandemic stock.'

In fairness to both the English and Welsh governments PPE has a shelf life of only between 3-6 months and stockpiling, the warehousing needed and the frequent replacement requirements was not financially viable given the rarity of pandemics. (Apparently a 3 month supply of PPE for the UK would require 5 acres of warehousing.) But, in answer to the above statement, there was no Welsh PPE for the English to steal and the abysmal record of the Welsh Government on testing had absolutely nothing to do with testing kits being stolen.

In the interest of balance, if Welsh PPE and testing kits were being stolen, please comment further. I would be fascinated to read that.

Let's face it all governments have questions to answer when this pandemic is over but I doubt whether the stealing of PPE and other equipment by the English will be one of them.

We got in, they didn't, they pulled rank when they realised they had made a huge massive mistake.
They were all for that Nazi type policy known as herd immunity and were of that mind set, they realise they were out of step with the sentiment of their Celtic neighbours and most of the World and pinched our stuff in the name of the UK, when Englands population makes up nearly all of the UK.

[trampie09]

Certain things are devolved. Two key ones are healthcare and education.We have full autonomy and responsibility for these

Crumbs off the table.

[lisvaneblue]

Welsh rugby stopped the Wales v Scotland match the English led UK authorities wanted it played.

The 1984 Act includes provision to stop sports events. So the Senedd could have stopped it but didn't. Glad to see the WRU did

[lisvaneblue]

Of course they share responsibility for this mess. If you genuinely believe otherwise, you're an idiot. It's no more complicated than that.

Your OP was about UK deaths, so the UK Gov must share responsibility for that. My comments related to Wales and the responsibility for healthcare rests solely with the Senedd. Its pretty straightforward, but you just don't seem to get it

[Croesy Blue]

Your OP was about UK deaths, so the UK Gov must share responsibility for that. My comments related to Wales and the responsibility for healthcare rests solely with the Senedd. Its pretty straightforward, but you just don't seem to get it

So all the deaths in wales are due to the senedd and you place zero blame on the U.K. government?