This government is a complete shambles

[trampie09]

I note your selective extract from my post. You conveniently omitted the following:

"The evidence is clear from the Labour Party itself. So let's stop the name calling and just let people vote how they vote without criticising individuals for their decisions.

I could vote Labour again but will have to see how things will pan out over the next 4 years. Starmer's made a good start even though I thought he was a bad choice."

There are a couple of things in there. Firstly I have been a Labour voter in the past and secondly I believe Starmer has made a good start even though his appointment defied logic given that he was the architects of one of the main reasons for Labour's failure. Political parties do make strange choices though including the decision by the Conservatives to appoint Boris.

My post doesn't therefore focus on one side of the argument as you state so you are patently wrong in your belief that I am a part of the problem. I wish you would read my entire post before sounding off.

Will Starmer lose the black vote ?

[trampie09]

You think the bbc is left wing ?

Nick Robinson political editor........tory

Laura Kuennesberg ......tory


That's the last two political editors

The big political heavyweight on the beeb was Andrew Neil and he was chairman of the federation of young Conservatives.
The Beeb has always been right wing, Welsh uni profs came out with the data proving it a few years back, they didn't prove it to me mind you as I always knew they were right wing it was obvious if you watch their news in a neutral fashion you can see how biased they are.

[lisvaneblue]

That's pretty small beer compared to what Panorama was talking about though isn't it. This thread has just become the usual tory v labour stuff with those taking an anti labour position ignoring the findings of the Programme.

Ive now watch the programme and thought it the usual biased tripe served up by the BBC. The programme slammed the government for poor tracing and tracking but this is the responsibility of an autonomous quango Public health England.

The government can tell it what to do but not how....so all the downsides about our poor tracking and tracing, how it was done, where it was done, who saw the reports, who did the testing was down to PHE.

In my opinion PHE should be scrapped, they've spent years telling the public to avoid obesity whilst getting fat themselves. They are just about to build a new HQ in Harlow!

As for Weston hospital what a load of rubbish. OK PHE offered poor tracing but this hospital had one floor devoted to Covid patients and another floor to non-covid patients and the junior doctors looking after each floor were rotated every week. You couldn't make it up!!! Of course this was not reported in the Panorama programme

[Heisenberg]

Ive now watch the programme and thought it the usual biased tripe served up by the BBC. The programme slammed the government for poor tracing and tracking but this is the responsibility of an autonomous quango Public health England.

The government can tell it what to do but not how....so all the downsides about our poor tracking and tracing, how it was done, where it was done, who saw the reports, who did the testing was down to PHE.

In my opinion PHE should be scrapped, they've spent years telling the public to avoid obesity whilst getting fat themselves. They are just about to build a new HQ in Harlow!

As for Weston hospital what a load of rubbish. OK PHE offered poor tracing but this hospital had one floor devoted to Covid patients and another floor to non-covid patients and the junior doctors looking after each floor were rotated every week. You couldn't make it up!!! Of course this was not reported in the Panorama programme

Are PHE responsible for the 25,000 tracers who have contacted an average of less than two people each since test, track and trace was introduced?

A simple "yes" or "no" answer would suffice.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Are PHE responsible for the 25,000 tracers who have contacted an average of less than two people each since test, track and trace was introduced?

A simple "yes" or "no" answer would suffice.

No. This guy is

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...avirus-crisis/

[lisvaneblue]

Are PHE responsible for the 25,000 tracers who have contacted an average of less than two people each since test, track and trace was introduced?

A simple "yes" or "no" answer would suffice.

Currently yes.

[lisvaneblue]

Are PHE responsible for the 25,000 tracers who have contacted an average of less than two people each since test, track and trace was introduced?

A simple "yes" or "no" answer would suffice.

Have look at their website. " We are responsible for preparing for and responding to public health emergencies'

[cyril evans awaydays]

Have look at their website. " We are responsible for preparing for and responding to public health emergencies'

PHE is an executive agency of the Department of Health and Social Care not an autonomous quango as you state i.e it is part of the Civil Service and staffed by civil servants and Matt Hancock is directly responsible for it, its responsibilities, budgets and plans. Though to be fair if you got your information on its governance from, say the Daily Mail then you could be forgiven for thinking it is a quango sitting far more outside the control of Ministers.

Fortunately there are more informative sources such as the Institute for Government which explain its relationship, how it was established by the Cameron government and how its integration within and accountable to a government department abolished about 70 of those nasty autonomous quangos you reference.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...health-england

That seems less pertinent than who is responsible for the testing and tracing programme though. As previously discussed this is led by Dido Harding. She reports directly to Boris Johnson and the Cabinet Secretary (if we had one) and not to the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care. (see Government Announcement). She is supported in this role by John Newton of PHE.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/n...amme-appointed

Other than Newton's supportive role it is not clear where PHE fits in the testing and tracing governance. What is clear is that it is not responsible for it. That sits fully in the hands of a Tory Peer reporting directly to the Prime Minister.

If you want to change your view that PHE is responsible for the 25,000 tracers who have contacted an average of less than two people each since test, track and trace was introduced from a simple yes to a simple no now would be a good time I guess.

[Heisenberg]

Have look at their website. " We are responsible for preparing for and responding to public health emergencies'

[Heisenberg]

PHE is an executive agency of the Department of Health and Social Care not an autonomous quango as you state i.e it is part of the Civil Service and staffed by civil servants and Matt Hancock is directly responsible for it, its responsibilities, budgets and plans. Though to be fair if you got your information on its governance from, say the Daily Mail then you could be forgiven for thinking it is a quango sitting far more outside the control of Ministers.

Fortunately there are more informative sources such as the Institute for Government which explain its relationship, how it was established by the Cameron government and how its integration within and accountable to a government department abolished about 70 of those nasty autonomous quangos you reference.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...health-england

That seems less pertinent than who is responsible for the testing and tracing programme though. As previously discussed this is led by Dido Harding. She reports directly to Boris Johnson and the Cabinet Secretary (if we had one) and not to the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care. (see Government Announcement). She is supported in this role by John Newton of PHE.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/n...amme-appointed

Other than Newton's supportive role it is not clear where PHE fits in the testing and tracing governance. What is clear is that it is not responsible for it. That sits fully in the hands of a Tory Peer reporting directly to the Prime Minister.

If you want to change your view that PHE is responsible for the 25,000 tracers who have contacted an average of less than two people each since test, track and trace was introduced from a simple yes to a simple no now would be a good time I guess.

Another

[lisvaneblue]

PHE is an executive agency of the Department of Health and Social Care not an autonomous quango as you state i.e it is part of the Civil Service and staffed by civil servants and Matt Hancock is directly responsible for it, its responsibilities, budgets and plans. Though to be fair if you got your information on its governance from, say the Daily Mail then you could be forgiven for thinking it is a quango sitting far more outside the control of Ministers.

Fortunately there are more informative sources such as the Institute for Government which explain its relationship, how it was established by the Cameron government and how its integration within and accountable to a government department abolished about 70 of those nasty autonomous quangos you reference.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...health-england

That seems less pertinent than who is responsible for the testing and tracing programme though. As previously discussed this is led by Dido Harding. She reports directly to Boris Johnson and the Cabinet Secretary (if we had one) and not to the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care. (see Government Announcement). She is supported in this role by John Newton of PHE.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/n...amme-appointed

Other than Newton's supportive role it is not clear where PHE fits in the testing and tracing governance. What is clear is that it is not responsible for it. That sits fully in the hands of a Tory Peer reporting directly to the Prime Minister.

If you want to change your view that PHE is responsible for the 25,000 tracers who have contacted an average of less than two people each since test, track and trace was introduced from a simple yes to a simple no now would be a good time I guess.

You are a pedantic individual.

PHE is responsible as I mentioned earlier. Dido Harding was brought in to supposedly sort out T&T but that does not take the overall accountability away from PHE who are responsible for' preparing for and responding to public health emergencies. There is no other organisation in England with this responsibility.

PHE has been sadly lacking in this pandemic but that does not take away its responsibilities. In late April England Health Minister Jo Churchill told PHE that it needed to adjust its organisational activities and resourcing of priority activities in line with the scale of response to Covid-19'

A spokesperson for PHE very recently replied to the PMs non specific comments about sluggish response by some organisations said..' PHE is playing a key role in our response working on important issues such as detection, surveillance, contact tracing and testing. Were have made changes to our structure already, for instance WE HAVE SET UP FROM SCRATCH NHS TEST & TRACE and the Joint Bio-security centre'

So its not just me that say PHE is responsible, they are saying it themselves

[cyril evans awaydays]

You are a pedantic individual.

PHE is responsible as I mentioned earlier. Dido Harding was brought in to supposedly sort out T&T but that does not take the overall accountability away from PHE who are responsible for' preparing for and responding to public health emergencies. There is no other organisation in England with this responsibility.

PHE has been sadly lacking in this pandemic but that does not take away its responsibilities. In late April England Health Minister Jo Churchill told PHE that it needed to adjust its organisational activities and resourcing of priority activities in line with the scale of response to Covid-19'

A spokesperson for PHE very recently replied to the PMs non specific comments about sluggish response by some organisations said..' PHE is playing a key role in our response working on important issues such as detection, surveillance, contact tracing and testing. Were have made changes to our structure already, for instance WE HAVE SET UP FROM SCRATCH NHS TEST & TRACE and the Joint Bio-security centre'

So its not just me that say PHE is responsible, they are saying it themselves

If I was being pedantic I would have pointed out that the quote you mentioned appeared in a Guardian article about Ministers seeking to transfer blame and responsibility to PHE. Rather than the selective quote you seem to give it was the Prime Minister's spokesman who made the quote.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ovid-19-errors

Asked whether PHE was under threat, the prime minister’s spokesman praised its role in the coronavirus crisis, but also stressed the need to ensure that institutions were “fit to cope” with future emergencies.

“Public Health England are playing a key role in our response, working on important issues such as detection, surveillance, contact-tracing and testing,” he said. “They have been working hard to help protect the country and to provide insight in our efforts to beat the virus.”

The spokesman added: “We’ve made changes to structures already, for instance we have set up, from scratch, NHS test and trace, and the joint biosecurity centre. Any future changes that we might make would be aimed at further strengthening our public health capability.”

When seen in that context it is obvious that the Prime Minister's spokesman when using the term we is referencing Boris Johnson's government and not PHE. This perfectly fits with the governance in which Dido Harding set up the test and trace system from scratch reporting directly to the Prime Minister.

I am sure you did not intentionally try to mislead to make your point though.

[Elwood Blues]

That means nothing

You are not a doctor and as you seem to suggest anyone could carry out these tests

But that's your non medical opinion , watch the programme , you will gain more knowledge than just believing your own , non medical hyperbole

The opinion of the medical experts is that testing needs close medical supervision

And what it also doesnt need is the sister of the disgraced dominic cummings being a top cheese in the company involved in rolling out the test app , which ended up being bollocks

I may have missed something.

But no figures were provided to show that Germany's testing regime provided more accuracy because it was done by doctors.

It has been done this way in the UK for weeks and I can't recall seeing any reports from medical experts saying it was wrong doing it that way.

One german expert said that they used medical staff in case there was a problem taking a swab but again no figures were provided showing how often this happened.

The program doesn't seem to have generated much if anything in the media in the following days so doesn't seem to be the scandal this thread suggests.

I do agree that it doesn't look particularly good Dominic Cummings sister being involved in the app company.

[Heisenberg]

I may have missed something.

But no figures were provided to show that Germany's testing regime provided more accuracy because it was done by doctors.

It has been done this way in the UK for weeks and I can't recall seeing any reports from medical experts saying it was wrong doing it that way.

One german expert said that they used medical staff in case there was a problem taking a swab but again no figures were provided showing how often this happened.

The program doesn't seem to have generated much if anything in the media in the following days so doesn't seem to be the scandal this thread suggests.

I do agree that it doesn't look particularly good Dominic Cummings sister being involved in the app company.

To be fair, Sludge has got that completely wrong.

Alice Cummings is no relation whatsoever to Dominic Cummings. That was just a rumour that was started online.

The company that she works for also has nothing to do with the app or anything of it's sort.

https://fullfact.org/online/not-domi...mmings-sister/

[Elwood Blues]

To be fair, Sludge has got that completely wrong.

Alice Cummings is no relation whatsoever to Dominic Cummings. That was just a rumour that was started online.

The company that she works for also has nothing to do with the app or anything of it's sort.

https://fullfact.org/online/not-domi...mmings-sister/

In that case I must apologise to Mr Cummings.

[lisvaneblue]

If I was being pedantic I would have pointed out that the quote you mentioned appeared in a Guardian article about Ministers seeking to transfer blame and responsibility to PHE. Rather than the selective quote you seem to give it was the Prime Minister's spokesman who made the quote.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ovid-19-errors

Asked whether PHE was under threat, the prime minister’s spokesman praised its role in the coronavirus crisis, but also stressed the need to ensure that institutions were “fit to cope” with future emergencies.

“Public Health England are playing a key role in our response, working on important issues such as detection, surveillance, contact-tracing and testing,” he said. “They have been working hard to help protect the country and to provide insight in our efforts to beat the virus.”

The spokesman added: “We’ve made changes to structures already, for instance we have set up, from scratch, NHS test and trace, and the joint biosecurity centre. Any future changes that we might make would be aimed at further strengthening our public health capability.”

When seen in that context it is obvious that the Prime Minister's spokesman when using the term we is referencing Boris Johnson's government and not PHE. This perfectly fits with the governance in which Dido Harding set up the test and trace system from scratch reporting directly to the Prime Minister.

I am sure you did not intentionally try to mislead to make your point though.

I apologise for the misquotation. Not intentional.

However I still maintain that ultimately PHE must be responsible. The fact that they were so off the mark that Bojo had to outsource Track and trace does not relinquish them of their responsibilities.
Faced with the most important thing they have been asked to manage for decades they have been found wanting and I doubt t they will survive in their present form for much longer

[cyril evans awaydays]

I apologise for the misquotation. Not intentional.

However I still maintain that ultimately PHE must be responsible. The fact that they were so off the mark that Bojo had to outsource Track and trace does not relinquish them of their responsibilities.
Faced with the most important thing they have been asked to manage for decades they have been found wanting and I doubt t they will survive in their present form for much longer

I think your original response to the Panorama programme was to place most of the responsibility for the performance of NHS Track and Trace at PHE's door. I think we now both understand that this is a Dido/Johnson accountability and PHE are a bit player.

It may be that it did not perform brilliantly or have the capacity to do so whhen testing and tracing was dropped in favour of herd immunity as the virus took hold. I don't know enough about who made the recommendations and decisions around the go it alone app to know whether PHE had any culpability or whether the decision to "buy British" was political.

I think you are being a bit unfair in saying it was found wanting on its most important challenge for decades as I think I pointed out earlier it was formed by the Cameron government in 2013 and has been in existence for just over seven years.

I am reminded a it of one of the mantras of some of the change programmes I was involved in. Success has many parents....failure is an orphan!

[life on mars]

Ive now watch the programme and thought it the usual biased tripe served up by the BBC. The programme slammed the government for poor tracing and tracking but this is the responsibility of an autonomous quango Public health England.

The government can tell it what to do but not how....so all the downsides about our poor tracking and tracing, how it was done, where it was done, who saw the reports, who did the testing was down to PHE.

In my opinion PHE should be scrapped, they've spent years telling the public to avoid obesity whilst getting fat themselves. They are just about to build a new HQ in Harlow!

As for Weston hospital what a load of rubbish. OK PHE offered poor tracing but this hospital had one floor devoted to Covid patients and another floor to non-covid patients and the junior doctors looking after each floor were rotated every week. You couldn't make it up!!! Of course this was not reported in the Panorama programme

I think we may see the Dom take a sword to PHE along with other quangos and bloated ineffective organisations.

[lisvaneblue]

I think your original response to the Panorama programme was to place most of the responsibility for the performance of NHS Track and Trace at PHE's door. I think we now both understand that this is a Dido/Johnson accountability and PHE are a bit player.

It may be that it did not perform brilliantly or have the capacity to do so whhen testing and tracing was dropped in favour of herd immunity as the virus took hold. I don't know enough about who made the recommendations and decisions around the go it alone app to know whether PHE had any culpability or whether the decision to "buy British" was political.

I think you are being a bit unfair in saying it was found wanting on its most important challenge for decades as I think I pointed out earlier it was formed by the Cameron government in 2013 and has been in existence for just over seven years.

I am reminded a it of one of the mantras of some of the change programmes I was involved in. Success has many parents....failure is an orphan!

I don't think Im being unfair on PHE. There was a test run on handling an epidemic in 2016 and no lessons seemed to be learned. I know the pandemic is a big challenge for it, but same goes for supermarkets, the UK medicines supply chain, and of course the NHS, plus many others that kept essentials going.

They stepped up to the plate but PHE barely got off the starting blocks.

[Elwood Blues]

I apologise for the misquotation. Not intentional.

However I still maintain that ultimately PHE must be responsible. The fact that they were so off the mark that Bojo had to outsource Track and trace does not relinquish them of their responsibilities.
Faced with the most important thing they have been asked to manage for decades they have been found wanting and I doubt t they will survive in their present form for much longer

Yes they may not be directly responsible now but it would appeared that it was only the fact that they were so off the pace that a new track and trace system had to be set up.

But as I have said before,and I know it gets boring, but it will need a proper enquiry to see exactly where the problems were.

We are all (and I include myself of course) guilty of not seeing the full picture and tainting our response with our own point of view,often because there is so much information out there that it is hard to see the wood from the trees.

And we all tend toselect those bits that suit our view.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Yes they may not be directly responsible now but it would appeared that it was only the fact that they were so off the pace that a new track and trace system had to be set up.

But as I have said before,and I know it gets boring, but it will need a proper enquiry to see exactly where the problems were.

We are all (and I include myself of course) guilty of not seeing the full picture and tainting our response with our own point of view,often because there is so much information out there that it is hard to see the wood from the trees.

And we all tend toselect those bits that suit our view.

I broadly agree with the points you make but what we are getting from Boris Johnson is "now is not the time" for such an enquiry.

This does not seem to have stopped either he or the team at No 10 feeding little drips of poison into the media against who they think should be the scapegoats for the failures (i.e not them).

In this regard it also suits that PHE, rightly or wrongly, are one of the main targets of these negative briefings as, pointed out earlier, they report directly to DHSC, whose Secretary of State, Matt Hancock is surely being lined up as one of the fall guys to take a bullet for Johnson and Cummings.

Where the truth is in all of this heaven knows but in modern populist politics that seems to be one of the last concerns.

[Elwood Blues]

I broadly agree with the points you make but what we are getting from Boris Johnson is "now is not the time" for such an enquiry.

This does not seem to have stopped either he or the team at No 10 feeding little drips of poison into the media against who they think should be the scapegoats for the failures (i.e not them).

In this regard it also suits that PHE, rightly or wrongly, are one of the main targets of these negative briefings as, pointed out earlier, they report directly to DHSC, whose Secretary of State, Matt Hancock is surely being lined up as one of the fall guys to take a bullet for Johnson and Cummings.

Where the truth is in all of this heaven knows but in modern populist politics that seems to be one of the last concerns.

I tend to agree that now is not the time for an enquiry but it shouldn't be too long
probably one should be set up in the autumn or early in the new year at the latest.

Number 10 is always doing negative briefings under any Prime Minister.

I note though that Boris Johnston is apparently going to set up a daily press briefing from the autumn, with an experienced broadcaster running it

[jon1959]

I tend to agree that now is not the time for an enquiry but it shouldn't be too long
probably one should be set up in the autumn or early in the new year at the latest.

Number 10 is always doing negative briefings under any Prime Minister.

I note though that Boris Johnston is apparently going to set up a daily press briefing from the autumn, with an experienced broadcaster running it

Maybe the government can publish a Covid Enquiry Report at the same time as the Russia Interference Report. Some time after 2035 is now looking favourite!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...hensible-delay

[Elwood Blues]

Maybe the government can publish a Covid Enquiry Report at the same time as the Russia Interference Report. Some time after 2035 is now looking favourite!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...hensible-delay

That soon ??????

Doesn't make me full of confidence that Chris Fayling (sorry finger slipped meant Grayling of course. Oh and I left the r out. How careless of me)
is likely to be the Chair of the committee that will review the report!!

You and I have some different political views but I think we can agree that Chris G hasn't been the finest Cabinet Minister in the world.

You might say that is an understatement.

You might be right!

[jon1959]

That soon ??????

Doesn't make me full of confidence that Chris Fayling (sorry finger slipped meant Grayling of course. Oh and I left the r out. How careless of me)
is likely to be the Chair of the committee that will review the report!!

You and I have some different political views but I think we can agree that Chris G hasn't been the finest Cabinet Minister in the world.

You might say that is an understatement.

You might be right!