Political post.. @Yescymru

[az city]

And how much tax receipts is that generating? As Ireland has accused Apple of failing to pay €13bn, under 1% tax paid.

GDP may be high on paper, but means nothing if it’s not doing anything with it

I genuinely don't understand what you're asking. I'll answer if you clarify.

[az city]

You can investigate the Irish economy here:

https://data.oecd.org/ireland.htm#profile-finance

[Feedback]

It would be coupled with joining the EU.

So not independent then, just independent of England.

I see.

[Feedback]

Just for reference.

GDP per capita:

Ireland $83,399 (2019)
Wales $27,459 (2015)
Sudan $4,072 (2019)
Chad $2,442 (2018)

Whats your point? We've already established Ireland's GDP is vastly over inflated as a result of the double Irish.

[Feedback]

Ireland is the poster child for how a small independent nation that speaks English on the periphery of the EU can propser.

"Ireland is currently fourth on the UN's Human Development Index (HDI) ranking, while the UK is at 14th. One component of those HDI rankings is real gross national income (GNI) per capita. ... On this measure, Ireland's income per head at $53,754 (€45,736) is 37 per cent higher than the UK's at $39,116 (€33,279)." David McWilliams (25 Sep 2018)

You really do ignore the double irish, and how it impacts Irish economic data.

[Feedback]

I genuinely don't understand what you're asking. I'll answer if you clarify.

Public services are paid for by taxes.

[Wozza16]

Something I always wonder, if Wales and Scotland are so poor, insignificant and a drain on the English taxpayers, why hasn't England gone it alone in the past 500 years? Why subsidise Wales if there is no aspect of us ever being able to support ourselves?

In addition to this, how does Wales have some of the poorest regions in Europe which includes places that was been in and out of civil wars and struggles? How is this even possible after up to 500 years of being in the 'greatest' union the world has ever seen? Surely we would be thriving by now?

Finally, how is Cardiff the place in the entire world where the first £1,000,000 cheque was signed? Nobody would ever guess that looking at the surrounding areas, because all the money generated from all industries was pumped straight down to London.

It's a massive achievement for independence to be at the forefront of the political debate, no matter what your opinion is, it does no harm in debating anything.

These are all legitimate questions I have for unionists. It's a pity Wales never had enough of its own powers to use any of this money for its own good.

[AfricanBluebird]

Thanks all for contributing ... Some really astute and interesting posts, from both sides of the argument and from those undecided or flirting with the idea of independence. And mostly respectful of each others opinions even when polar opposite..

I wasn't trying to cause arguments or convert anyone, but just gauge the temperature for independence.

Diolch yn fawr

[Vindec]

Agreed currency is often touted as a sticking point in the Indy Scotland debate but really isn’t a major issue. But I would be very surprised if we didn’t follow Scotland with whatever they do, in which the Euro is a possibility.

It is a huge issue. Wales would have no say over interest rates or monetary policy and would have to accept controls by the Bank of England or Brussels if the euro is adopted meaning the country couldn't possibly be truly independent.

I would love to think Wales would be able to survive independently but how would they deal with this pandemic financially when all the money resulting from the Drakeford's latest firebreak will be provided by London? The answer is they couldn't fund this pandemic on their own and couldn't raise the money without permission from London where monetary policy is set.

[light up the darkness]

I would interpret your last line as a lack of confidence not just in our politics but as a country. Is there, potentially, no-one in Wales who knows how to sustain a nation? How do the Irish or the people of Iceland get by without someone watching over their shoulders to make sure they've done it right?

“....enough intelligent people in politics..”

I didn’t say there weren’t any amongst the population. They should step up now and give confidence to the undecided.

[The Bloop]

I love the idea of Wales being truly independent but I cant see how economically viable it is in the near future. Saying that though, the question of Wales's identity and potential independence should never go away, and if it takes an organisation like YesCymru to stop the idea from disappearing, then it's fine by me.

[Divine Wright]

Yes.

We are a comparatively humble people.

No illusions of grandeur.

We would get along fine by ourselves.

We wouldn't balls things up like England has done with Brexit and would maintain decent relations with countries around us, making us a viable member of the EU and a sustainable independent state. It's all about diplomacy when it comes to the economy.

Those of you who have concerns about the economic impact should listen to the latest YesCymru podcast.... amongst other things.

I get the feeling that fearing independence is part of colonial conditioning. You are obviously made to feel inadequate when placed next to such a huge power. However, that power is now fading rapidly and countries like Wales, Scotland, Ireland no longer look like such no-hopers.

[WJ99mobile]

I don't have the data to back this up I wonder if;


Brexit supporter = No to independence
EU supporter = Yes to independence

[MacAdder]

Would have thought other way around.

[Rjk]

I don't have the data to back this up I wonder if;


Brexit supporter = No to independence
EU supporter = Yes to independence

I am a strong EU supporter and pretty neutral on Welsh independance, i'd always previously been against it but may just be tipping into the pro independance group

[The Gifaffe]

Finally, how is Cardiff the place in the entire world where the first £1,000,000 cheque was signed? Nobody would ever guess that looking at the surrounding areas, because all the money generated from all industries was pumped straight down to London.

Easy one this, the Marquess of Bute poured his Scottish money into building Cardiff Dock. Pretty sure he spent a lot of the profit on Cardiff Castle and building Castell Coch.

[Rjk]

Something I always wonder, if Wales and Scotland are so poor, insignificant and a drain on the English taxpayers, why hasn't England gone it alone in the past 500 years? Why subsidise Wales if there is no aspect of us ever being able to support ourselves?

In addition to this, how does Wales have some of the poorest regions in Europe which includes places that was been in and out of civil wars and struggles? How is this even possible after up to 500 years of being in the 'greatest' union the world has ever seen? Surely we would be thriving by now?

Finally, how is Cardiff the place in the entire world where the first £1,000,000 cheque was signed? Nobody would ever guess that looking at the surrounding areas, because all the money generated from all industries was pumped straight down to London.

It's a massive achievement for independence to be at the forefront of the political debate, no matter what your opinion is, it does no harm in debating anything.

These are all legitimate questions I have for unionists. It's a pity Wales never had enough of its own powers to use any of this money for its own good.

I remember reading years ago someone who had written a paper on infrastructure, and what overviews of populated areas looked like. I've looked for it many times since, but have never been able to find it.

It said that south wales had the classic infrastructure designed to strip natural resources away from an area and extract all the wealth away from there as quickly as possible. It showed numerous other examples elsewhere in the world that were similar

[Vindec]

Something I always wonder, if Wales and Scotland are so poor, insignificant and a drain on the English taxpayers, why hasn't England gone it alone in the past 500 years? Why subsidise Wales if there is no aspect of us ever being able to support ourselves?

In addition to this, how does Wales have some of the poorest regions in Europe which includes places that was been in and out of civil wars and struggles? How is this even possible after up to 500 years of being in the 'greatest' union the world has ever seen? Surely we would be thriving by now?

Finally, how is Cardiff the place in the entire world where the first £1,000,000 cheque was signed? Nobody would ever guess that looking at the surrounding areas, because all the money generated from all industries was pumped straight down to London.

It's a massive achievement for independence to be at the forefront of the political debate, no matter what your opinion is, it does no harm in debating anything.

These are all legitimate questions I have for unionists. It's a pity Wales never had enough of its own powers to use any of this money for its own good.

The figures don't back this up as I indicated (with link) in an earlier post. Wales receives far more money from England than it generates in taxes. From memory the gap is around £15bn.

[Rjk]

The figures don't back this up as I indicated (with link) in an earlier post. Wales receives far more money from England than it generates in taxes. From memory the gap is around £15bn.

How much more does England spend than it generates in taxes?

[Feedback]

Something I always wonder, if Wales and Scotland are so poor, insignificant and a drain on the English taxpayers, why hasn't England gone it alone in the past 500 years? Why subsidise Wales if there is no aspect of us ever being able to support ourselves?

In addition to this, how does Wales have some of the poorest regions in Europe which includes places that was been in and out of civil wars and struggles? How is this even possible after up to 500 years of being in the 'greatest' union the world has ever seen? Surely we would be thriving by now?

Finally, how is Cardiff the place in the entire world where the first £1,000,000 cheque was signed? Nobody would ever guess that looking at the surrounding areas, because all the money generated from all industries was pumped straight down to London.

It's a massive achievement for independence to be at the forefront of the political debate, no matter what your opinion is, it does no harm in debating anything.

These are all legitimate questions I have for unionists. It's a pity Wales never had enough of its own powers to use any of this money for its own good.

with all due respect the money generated from the mines was channelled to Yorkshire and Scotland and not London.

If you really want to know why Wales is so poor in parts, a lot of it has to do with geography and the fact we were primarily an extraction economy.

[Feedback]

How much more does England spend than it generates in taxes?

England has the resources to pay back any borrowing the government may utilise, Wales does not.

[Feedback]

Easy one this, the Marquess of Bute poured his Scottish money into building Cardiff Dock. Pretty sure he spent a lot of the profit on Cardiff Castle and building Castell Coch.

the housing provided to the dockers and miners was some of the best quality in the UK, that's thanks to the Crawshays and Butes. both families made lots of money, but didn't keep it just to themselves, unlike other Victorian/Edwardian industrialists.

[Rjk]

England has the resources to pay back any borrowing the government may utilise, Wales does not.

I presume the answer is more than 15bn then

[Feedback]

I presume the answer is more than 15bn then

I understand what you're getting at. If the English deficit of taxes against spend was £275bn then per capita things would be equal. however, I doubt the English deficit is anywhere near that, as you are probably aware too, so your point isn't really valid.

[Rjk]

I understand what you're getting at. If the English deficit of taxes against spend was £275bn then per capita things would be equal. however, I doubt the English deficit is anywhere near that, as you are probably aware too, so your point isn't really valid.

It's likely to be around that this year!

As a % that kind of deficit for Wales wouldn't be unprecedented, and other countries have managed that previously and come out the other side much better.
The idea being if you have an economy run to benefit Wales then we will see increased growth, and reduce the defecit.