Reply With QuoteYou already know anything that matters. It's not a difficult one to evaluate.Originally Posted by Vindec
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Cameron is the worst PM in British history. Boris is just the unfortunate effect of Cameron's gamble.
You already know anything that matters. It's not a difficult one to evaluate.
I've got well used to hopeless Governments and Prime Ministers over the past decade that are dominated by the Conservative party's civil war over the EU and will do anything to placate the zealots on the right of their party.
you always 'demand' answers like you are some kind of inquisitor. and if someone doesn't answer you use that as proof that they are wrong. Which of course is in itself wrong.
Why don't we vote in a right wing government and then see what they do or don't do instead of asking what a right wing government we have never had did for the valleys?
Bearing in mind of course that our non-right wing government has had years of the benefit of EU money as a deprived nation.
And lets try to remember that there is more to Wales than the Valleys too.
I think you have quoted the wrong post as your comments do not relate to anything I said.
The problem is that if Labour had won the election we wouldn't have Starmer we'd have Crobyn and the people like Abbott and McCluskey behind him pulling his strings. Crobyn is notorious for being incapable of making decisions so god help us in any negotiations with him in charge
No one voted leave for economic reasons. We knew before the vote that it would hurt us financially and we still know it now. Leave voters obviously thought the benefits outweigh the cost
Personally, I still haven't seen a single benefit that is better or easier than what we had under EU membership (extra herring doesn't do much for me to be honest) but the one good thing is that this is an issue the Tories own from start to finish. No one else to blame (although let's wait to see how 'businesses haven't prepared in time' in January) so this one's all on them.
Will certainly make it easier to explain to my kids as they grow up in the first generation in a log time who have fewer opportunities than their parents had.
This is not the first time you have stated that I take a particular political line and it is as untrue now as it was the first time you peddled it. Unless of course you mean saying something that goes against your philosophy. I have clearly stated on this forum more than once that I voted to remain in the EU, as I thought it was the better option, but the fact is the country voted to leave, so one has to be pragmatic and get on with the business. My dislike of Drakeford is personal not political, I just don't like the man and I question his motives in some of the things he does. It isn't political at all.
The only judgement I make is on certain people who judge everything by their own political beliefs, and in doing so will automatically say something is bad or wrong whatever it is, if it doesn't agree with their ideas of how things should be, even, as you accept, they don't even know what that something is yet.
You only have to read some of the posts in this thread to understand that this is so, if one can see part one's own political beliefs.
The real fact is that the country voted for this and then the country voted for the current Westminster Government on the promise to do this and finish it, and they have. And many of those who did vote in this government are people who's naturally affinity is to another party. Perhaps some on here might quietly reflect on why that may have been.
What happens in the next few years will determine the rightness or wrongness of it, and nothing else. no one can state now that it is wrong.
I suppose the same can be said about the opposition party only on the other side of the scale, I've spoilt my vote on the last couple of elections and I would like to see a box added to the ballot paper of (None of the Above) and if that comes back with a majority then they have to find a fresh bunch of MP's and go again, so it would maybe end the career politician and get a bit of substance behind our politics.
Whilst I agree with the thrust of your post we have to be careful what we wish for.
At their last election the Americans voted for someone who was definitely not a "Career Politician"
That went well!
No, I was replying to your comments about us “having to get used to it” - I’m well used to it by now, but it seems the more havoc the Conservatives cause with their infatuation over Europe, the more people consider them “the least worst option”.
For those interested, I though this thread was quite good posted last night: https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status...37512488296448
Some will want to move on now and some will continue to look at the details. All I would say is that when Wales succeeded in reaching the semi-final's there were so many books, films, podcasts covering every magnificent detail....people enjoy that sort of specific coverage when they're talking about something they're proud of.1. Getting a free trade agreem't done in less than a year is unusually quick. Both teams of negotiators deserve praise. UK's refusal to extend transition may have helped, by concentrating minds. The cost: great uncertainty for firms, which haven't known what rules to expect.
3. Leaving the EU is rather like accession in reverse: when joining EU, a country has to take EU's terms or it doesn't get in. Once UK had set its red lines, EU decided the broad outlines of the deal it would get. EU has ceded on details, but overall shape is what it wanted.
6. EU has been paranoid on level playing field. Its big trade surplus suggests field tilts v UK; Brexit will make UK even less competitive. No Tory govt would slash soc'l/envt'l rights or pump billions into industry. UK also silly to fight to keep right to cut rules it likes.
7. When the Brits realise what a thin deal they've got, their politicians will debate how/whether to improve it. Labour is likely to seek closer economic & security ties. For one reason or another, UK & EU will be in permanent negotiation, for at least 50 years. Ask the Swiss.
8. In those negot's UK will be hampered by lack of trust on EU side. Episodes like the attempts to prorogue Parliament and over-ride the Withdrawal Agreement have damaged UK soft power. EU will be pragmatic and realistic but it doesn't start out with lots of goodwill to UK.
10. Brexit adds to uncertainty about UK unity (many Brexiteers care little about this). It's helping to boost support for SNP & Scottish independence. And nobody can be sure how new border in Irish Sea will affect politics in N IRE - which'll stay in single mkt & customs
There was a Labour Government for thirteen years not that long ago and, while they could never be described as wholly united on Europe, it was never as dominated by the issue as the Conservatives have been.
Agree with you on the “none of the above” option.
A genuine question. Why did you spoil your ballot papers ? Is it just personal satisfaction or Is their some other motivation ? I ask as someone who has worked on Election counts of all sorts for many years and have always wondered what the expectation might be.
I don't know the details, but I'd imagine ballot spoiling has absolutely no effect on anything. You might as well save yourself the bother and not vote at all.
Well, when you hold certain beliefs and someone consistently says things that are contrary to them over a long period, like you have done, you assume that they have little or nothing in common with you politically. Anyway, all I did was point out that you appeared to be doing exactly the same as some who had made you “smile” because of the way they were putting their views over. The only thing I said on the Brexit vote in particular was that the title of this thread reminded me of the sort of language heard by some leave voters.
Everybody judges things by their own political beliefs, or to put it another way, I’d be reluctant to believe someone who claimed they didn’t. A thing that sometimes makes me smile is how some are so reluctant to admit that theirs have changed as they move a long way to the right as they get older.
you can only move a long way to the right as you get older if you are not there already.
Maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve often felt that a big enough number of spoilt ballots or “none of the above” votes if they were allowed may have an effect on the bigger parties - I would probably have voted none of the above in the 2010 General Election if it had been allowed.
Thast would only work if the spoiled ballot papers were formally counted instead of just being thrown away
That does happen in some countries - maybe Russia if I remember rightly? But not the UK, so it's just a pointless endeavour, even if it would be useful to have one day.
They are formally counted and included in the totality for each constituency/ward
Really? I n ever knew that. Learn something every day.
Now the deal has been agreed can someone tell me an actual benefit of brexit beyond meaningless buzzwords and catchphrases like sovereignty and taking back control?
As far as I can see we have been reduced to celebrating signing the first ever trade deal in history that makes it harder for us to trade.
I suppose it depends if you think sovereignty is meaningless. Some people do, some people don't
'Your future dream is a shopping scheme'.
Must be nice that your dream scenario is another huge swathe of ashpalt across our beautiful country, still the economy must grow, captitalism and all that. I'd prefer to live in a small country, with a small economy and small population, cut our cloth accordingly etc. Still, each to their own.
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