Songs Of Praise

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Songs Of Praise

The one that i believe is missing from this thread is a middle ground. There is some leeway with faith, that may not be the case at the top of the tree, or amongst the most hard line believers, but what is important is that most people who do have a confidence in god are not hard line, they question plenty of things that are purportedly sent from god, or gods will. They are moderate people who take what they need from their belief system, as and when, it seems that some people in this thread can't quite understand that and are going to extremes to get their point across.

Faith is many different things to many different people. Political belief plays a part in how it is interpreted, outlook on life, characteristics and personality, as well as financial, personal situation and education levels. It isn't a system where everyone believes in fairies or the day of reckoning. It's also cultural, so people will believe in certain gods etc based on the environment that they were born in and nurtured towards, how else is it supposed to happen.

I'm not religious, i don't believe in a god, but this perception that those that do are at the extreme end of the scale in their beliefs, characteristics etc, just isn't true. Although it's a decent argument to make if you want to draw a line in the sand and take aim.

Absolutely.

I'd add that if it gives people strength in times of difficulty, gives people hope when there appears to be little, gives people a spiritual level they feel they need, gives them a purpose they lacked, how can we say it's a bad thing?

[Tuerto]

Re: Songs Of Praise

Absolutely.

I'd add that if it gives people strength in times of difficulty, gives people hope when there appears to be little, gives people a spiritual level they feel they need, gives them a purpose they lacked, how can we say it's a bad thing?

I think that people can say what they like, Eric. What needs to be taken into consideration is that the 'membership' certainly doesn't represent the most brutal, hardline aspects of religion, it's not even close in my opinion. That's an important aspect in this debate, although ignored. The subject is very complex.

[stevo]

Re: Songs Of Praise

Absolutely.

I'd add that if it gives people strength in times of difficulty, gives people hope when there appears to be little, gives people a spiritual level they feel they need, gives them a purpose they lacked, how can we say it's a bad thing?

Well, it’s the cause of most wars for starters.

[delmbox]

Re: Songs Of Praise

God, if you're listening, please sort out the quote function for these fecking heathens.

It's like they've all attended a course run by splott parker over the weekend or something

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: Songs Of Praise

[QUOTE=delmbox;5169538]It's like they've all attended a course run by splott parker over the weekend or something

Shame I missed it. Is he running another one?

[Croesy Blue]

Re: Songs Of Praise

:hehe:

[AfricanBluebird]

Re: Songs Of Praise

I've enjoyed reading this thread.

Some excellent points of view and also some good banter.

No one can demonstrate and prove the existence of God. Atheists know that and believers who say they can are lying or deluded.

I don't think that its even a believers job to convince people there's a God.

As someone who does believe in God but sees the absolute insanity of it and also the damage and manipulation of religion, I will probably bring negative response from both camps.

I think that religion has both been a cause of good in the world and also the cause of much hatred, death, abuse and corruption. All can be true.

The holy scripture is full of poetic beauty and also some shockingly absurd things.

I find the conservative evangelicalism in the US absolutely abhorrent. But I also see the kindness, gentleness, wisdom and care of some people of faith inspiring.

At the end of the day it's everyone's right to believe and not to believe... And I think everyone, believer or not, should be on a journey to discover their own beliefs or non-belief and many shades in-between.

The damage is done when people are indoctrinated into certain beliefs that removes critical thinking, logic, care and kindness from the equation. Religion is about controling people.

But someone with a quiet, personal faith that is centred on love and kindness surely is a good thing.

If there is a God, and I believe their is, I think he and his son left the building of religion a long time ago.

[jon1959]

Re: Songs Of Praise

I don't believe in God, or gods. He, it or they are a human invention to explain the unknown and give comfort in the face of inevitable death.

But there is a difference between faith in a God and religion. Both are human inventions, but organised religion has been a political and social construct for at least 3000 years (at least in the Abrahamic traditions) and have been responsible for many of the worst crimes and abuses in history. Faith on the other hand can be a very personal ethical code - and useful for defining a set of values and customs that are usually positive - as long as they are not projected onto other people.

I rejected supernatural faith and organised religion when I was 12. I was part of a group of 'young people' ho took part in a structured Congregationalist Church membership programme - six weeks for one night a week with the minister. At then end of that I was out! But I have always had friends and family members around who were believers - usually of the barely questioning type who go along with the stories and the rituals as a social comfort blanket, but a few who agonised about the big questions all their lives. My dad - now dead - went to Church every week and lead a lot of mid-week discussion groups. He hated religion. Described himself as a Secular Christian and (with a group of likeminded people) as The Heretics. I doubt he believed in heaven or hell, God or the Devil. He regarded most of it as metaphor but to my bemusement it came to dominate his life. After he retired he even went on to get a degree and doctorate in theology he was that obsessed!

Straight atheism, simple humanism, is a much more rational and stress free way to live. We are born, we live, we will die - and on the journey we should try to use our opportunities and talents to make the world a bit better according to our own view (not one imposed by a religious or political authority) of what is good and what is bad.

[Tuerto]

Re: Songs Of Praise

I don't believe in God, or gods. He, it or they are a human invention to explain the unknown and give comfort in the face of inevitable death.

But there is a difference between faith in a God and religion. Both are human inventions, but organised religion has been a political and social construct for at least 3000 years (at least in the Abrahamic traditions) and have been responsible for many of the worst crimes and abuses in history. Faith on the other hand can be a very personal ethical code - and useful for defining a set of values and customs that are usually positive - as long as they are not projected onto other people.

I rejected supernatural faith and organised religion when I was 12. I was part of a group of 'young people' ho took part in a structured Congregationalist Church membership programme - six weeks for one night a week with the minister. At then end of that I was out! But I have always had friends and family members around who were believers - usually of the barely questioning type who go along with the stories and the rituals as a social comfort blanket, but a few who agonised about the big questions all their lives. My dad - now dead - went to Church every week and lead a lot of mid-week discussion groups. He hated religion. Described himself as a Secular Christian and (with a group of likeminded people) as The Heretics. I doubt he believed in heaven or hell, God or the Devil. He regarded most of it as metaphor but to my bemusement it came to dominate his life. After he retired he even went on to get a degree and doctorate in theology he was that obsessed!

Straight atheism, simple humanism, is a much more rational and stress free way to live. We are born, we live, we will die - and on the journey we should try to use our opportunities and talents to make the world a bit better according to our own view (not one imposed by a religious or political authority) of what is good and what is bad.

Both yours and African Bluebirds posts are pretty much what i was trying to say. Both excellent posts, they include the nuances that i believe exist with having faith and how it manifests itself in many different ways. My upbringing was religious, i rejected it quite early on, for a time i was prepared to throw arguments at people who had faith, even antagonising them to the point of anger and a break down in communication and understanding. I realised that all i was doing was contributing towards everything i disliked about religion. I realised that it isn't straight forward and most people with faith don't have the answers i was looking for, Neither should they. Maturity led me to understand that faith can mean whatever a person feels at any given time, and it wasn't my place to belittle or criticise those emotions.

[Heisenberg]

Re: Songs Of Praise

It's like they've all attended a course run by splott parker over the weekend or something

:hehe: What's his quote-fail tally at currently?

[pomeroy]

Re: Songs Of Praise

Very good posts from African Bluebird, John 1959 and Tuerto. We have to be thankful that the majority of posters on this board do not follow the cult of Annism and its seven gospels.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Songs Of Praise

It has just occurred to me that, statistically, atheists and most believers in deities have more things in common regarding belief systems that you think:

An atheist doesn't believe in the tens of thousands of religions that exist or have existed throughout history on planet Earth.

A believer doesn't believe in the tens of thousands of religions that exist or have existed throughout history on planet Earth - except one.

By the way, if there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe those beings are unlikely to believe in any of our local gods.

[Tuerto]

Re: Songs Of Praise

This must be a record, 21 pages in and nobody has thrown any insults-On a religious thread! If god did miracles........ :hehe:

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Songs Of Praise

This must be a record, 21 pages in and nobody has thrown any insults-On a religious thread! If god did miracles........ :hehe:

I will resist the temptation to suggest that you go forth and multiply :hehe:

[Tuerto]

Re: Songs Of Praise

I will resist the temptation to suggest that you go forth and multiply :hehe:

:thumbup: