The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

Didn't Drakeford as Health Minister oversea a huge cut in the health budget in Wales which may have played a part in Wales not having suffident spare capacity for events like Covid

Worth a read:

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/0...arian-windbag/

why do you think drakeford had to make budget cuts ?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

All i can say, is this. I can't believe that people in this thread really believe that central government Labour is Left Wing. Corbyn Was left wing, he wasn't even far left. And people call for a centrist party, that's Labour, with smatterings of right wing policy.

Well if a left wing party under corbyn got a beating in the polls do you think a far left party would do better ?

I would love a socialist party in control of this country but its never going to happen so we have to try and get the best we can

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

It is interesting that in this purely political thread there has been hardly any discussion of the policies of different parties and where they would lead the country. That sort of debate seems to be dead.

The M4 relief road is an important topic, but it's not a party policy.

I think a left of centre party would lead this country into a better place than Boris and his crew of libertarians

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

The Senedd is fiddling while Wales burns. They argue amongst themselves about things that don't matter, while the country is being left behind the rest of the UK. They are so puffed up with their own importance, they've forgotten what they are there for - to work for Wales, and to look out for it's interests. Wales has gone backwards in the last twenty years, and that rate in which we are falling behind is accelerating. Something has to change.
People in Wales have a built-in tendency to vote for Labour (right or wrong) and that has led to complacency and a lack of will amongst it's politicians. Why bother trying, if you're going to get elected anyway? The Senedd is a talking shop for second rate politicians who couldn't make the grade at Westminster. It's time for a change.

to the conservatives , christ no

Getting rid of the assembly ?

Thats a matter for debate

[Pearcey3]

Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

Labour are not finished.Their time will come again but they desperately need a charismatic leader.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

Labour are not finished.Their time will come again but they desperately need a charismatic leader.

Agreed. There was talk 20 years ago that the Tories were finished after successive Labour landslides. The Tories haven't even got close to emulating that level of support.

[Former Labour leader]

Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

Agreed. There was talk 20 years ago that the Tories were finished after successive Labour landslides. The Tories haven't even got close to emulating that level of support.

Both in Wales and England Labour decent leaders (imo). But both lack the charisma of previous leaders.
Mark Drakeford is no Rhodri Morgan, Keir Starmer is no Tony Blair or even Jeremy Corbyn.
If you look to Scotland Nicola Sturgeon has bags of charisma.
Assuming MD is reelected he always intended standing down midway the next government. Hopefully members will elect the right candidate preferably a woman, to take the Labo6party forward.

[WJ99mobile]

Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

Labour are not finished.Their time will come again but they desperately need a charismatic leader.

Labour are finished until they decide who they are.

It’s like 2 separate parties in one with conflicting policies, conflicting people and a conflicting vision.

I’d love to vote Labour but for every one thing I agree with there’s two that I don’t.

[Tuerto]

Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

Well if a left wing party under corbyn got a beating in the polls do you think a far left party would do better ?

I would love a socialist party in control of this country but its never going to happen so we have to try and get the best we can

I'm not asking for a far left party, even in the unlikely event of it happening, the establishment would crush it, as they did with Corbyn, as did plenty of his Parliamentary party members, because they're not really left wing, they're pro business, pro Bosses, in fear of a right wing media. I think what you want is a Tory lite party, because you think that there's no other option. The Bullies and Gangsters have decided which way politics is going in this country, just to protect their own interests, plenty of people jumping on board with it. I'll never endorse the dilution of real left wing politics, even though it's been happening for the past 30 years.

[City123]

Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

I'm not asking for a far left party, even in the unlikely event of it happening, the establishment would crush it, as they did with Corbyn, as did plenty of his Parliamentary party members, because they're not really left wing, they're pro business, pro Bosses, in fear of a right wing media. I think what you want is a Tory lite party, because you think that there's no other option. The Bullies and Gangsters have decided which way politics is going in this country, just to protect their own interests, plenty of people jumping on board with it. I'll never endorse the dilution of real left wing politics, even though it's been happening for the past 30 years.

I'm fairly convinced that most people who see themselves as "Proper Labour voters" really want that.

We're a servile nation who fetishise authority to the extent that we've got swathes of the country supporting a bill that severely infringes our right to protest. Relatively tame demonstrations are condemned even by liberals and the Labour Party. A former Labour leader was hounded on television for refusing to say he'd commit mass murder through nuclear war while his successor (who abhors violence unless its by the state) says confidently he'd do it. Labour's fully costed, moderately socialist manifesto was considered "far left", "loony", "Stalinist" etc. Anybody who believes in basic decency is a "woke snowflake", anyone who questions whether Winston Churchill was an amazing superhero who did nothing wrong apparently hates the country.

British political discourse has shifted to such a degree that I honestly can't see a Labour government forming for a long time, never mind a properly left wing one. Regardless, Labour are not a vehicle for change, they have vested interests in retaining the status quo. That's true in Westminster and here in Wales

[Pearcey3]

Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

Labour are finished until they decide who they are.

It’s like 2 separate parties in one with conflicting policies, conflicting people and a conflicting vision.

I’d love to vote Labour but for every one thing I agree with there’s two that I don’t.

There has always been that struggle between left and right. It went quiet in Blair’s early years but Iraq changed all that and for the past 20 years the party has been a complete shambles. I’m a member at the moment but getting seriously passed off with Starmer’s lack of ooomph. He seems to be scared of his own shadow.

Labour are far too soft. They need to be far nastier. Just like the Tories are.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

Is there any point continuing with the politics board given that this thread has grown to this size?

This thread goes to the heart of why the Labour party is unsuccessful electorally. Although the Conservative party is becoming more factionalised with "research groups" of stroppy ultra right wingers, they tend to fall into line when there's an important vote or an election to be won - the Conservative's are not called the most efficient election fighting body in history for nothing, they'll do anything to stay in power (for example, a furlough scheme which was socialist in principle) because the lesson that you can do nothing unless you're in power has been learned by them.

On the other hand, Labour nearly always are fighting an "enemy within" and, as I've mentioned before on here, to a large degree, they look inside their party for the people or bodies they are opposed to, not the party they should be concentrating their fire on. Look at Jeremy Corbyn - how many times did he vote against his party when they were in Government?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

Thatcher started the swerve towards the right in this country . And I am afraid its not stopped .

Major was a decent enough bloke , apart from some sideways boffing but Blair , after a few good years , went potty and lurched to the tory lite figure he really was . And of course his invasion of Iraq was a criminal disgrace .

Brown was a decent man but lost the plot .

Cameron was thatchers love child and alongside that we had Ed milligan who again was a nice bloke but totally incompetent as a leader and crucified by the right wing press .

Corbyn had some good ideas but too much baggage easily rooted out by the media and surround yourself by the likes of Abbott and you are doomed .

Brexit for me showed that there was a significant xenophobic switch in this country and many were still filled with this rule brittania nonsense , fuelled by the euro sceptic tory party .

Sadly the days of sticking together through the hard times have gone . Workers rights have gone out of the window , since Thatcher came along everything not nailed down has been sold and the marketplace is king . Its survival of the fittest . It wasn't always like that but its now down to voluntary sector things like food banks to help those in need .

People in their millions voted for the conservatives who have dismantled the welfare state . Following this dreadful virus those same millions are having to turn towards universal credit and sickness benefits . They have had a massive shock and the reality of what they have voted for is hitting home . Hopefully those people will think again next time.

My father and grandfather were socialists but the reality in 2021 is that those of us that don't vote tory need a party that has democratic left of centre values but is actually going to form a government and implement those policies that we want .

I don't think that's going to happen unless a sort of left of centre alliance is formed . The numbers do just not add up . The majority of the country do not vote tory . But enough of the country does to enable them to form a government .

From scraping through to form a coalition with the liberals under Cameron to Theresa may sucking up to the ulster unionists we now have a situation where Boris and his front bench , who are libertarian , right wing and totally incompetent, have a 80 seat majority

Anyone who thinks the soppy and ineffective starmer has any chance of overturning that needs to see a doctor.

But I don't think its about leadership . Lisa Nandy was my choice but whoever took over the baton was heading a party that in my opinion , like the liberals , is finished . Corbyn , Brexit, the selfish modern society we live in means for me those that don't vote tory need a fresh start .

It might take a few years but a left of centre democratic party involving the best brains from the Labour, Liberal and Conservative Party ........Ken Clarke, Sarah Wollaston types and the minority parties is the only way to go

I would love to see the renationalisation of water , gas , the railways , electricity , I would love to see care workers not employed on poor wages by private companies but on contracted hours , given decent pensions and working directly for the local social services department . I would love to see cleaners employed by the NHS , not private businesses .

But that isn't going to happen . Improvements MAY be made if a left of centre democratic alliance is formed . Until that does happen I will vote Labour or whatever party locally has the best chance of keeping the tories out . But until then unless we accept the Labour and Liberal parties are finished and we need to join up we are forever going to be arguing from the sidelines .

[jon1959]

Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

'Cameron was thatchers love child and alongside that we had Ed milligan who again was a nice bloke but totally incompetent as a leader and crucified by the right wing press'

Sludge, I hope you aren't one of those people who think Ed's brother Spike would have been a better leader?

[AfricanBluebird]

Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

I think a lot of what has been said by both Sludge and former labour leader is correct. However I would also suggest that the way some councils, and WAG itself, run things is poor.

If you look at Caerphilly council as an example, they have been shocking.

Closing leisure centres against the wishes of the people.
Going to court to fight against the wishes of the people.
Building new homes everywhere.
Former leader breaching code of conduct by not declaring interest in major investments.
The former CEO pay scandal.

Then there is the Islwyn candidate travelling to Swindon to see her boyfriend during lockdown, whilst possibly not breaking the law, it certainly breaks the spirit of the lockdown rules and undermines the WAG message.

Oh and a couple of years ago was found guilty of Drink Driving.

None of this helps labours cause and was some of the major talking points on the doorsteps during 2019 election campaign

Shocking leadership in Caerphilly. My parents live in the county and also I used to work there

This is why people don't trust labour anymore and looking for alternatives.

Labour have become complacent and a 'jobs for the boys' club in many welsh counties because they have been there for so long.

It's disgusting.

For me Adam Price is one of the most ethical and visionary leaders in Wales and I hope that people recognise Plaid as the only alternative to Labour.