Reply With QuoteIf the whole UK voted I'm sure Scotland would stay. I can't see there's much enthusiasm for them to go amongst the majority of English people.
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I have mulling over this and all it's implications for a while now. I don't pretend to have answers but wonder what other board members feel about certain aspects of it.
First of all who should vote? Should it be people from any nationality who reside in Scotland or only Scots? Should Scottish people living outside the country be entitled to vote as it is their homeland?
Or as it affects everyone in the UK should all UK citizens be allowed to vote? (Personally I think if this were the case they would probably be gone tomorrow, although it isn't my preferred option)
But assuming the vote is for separation what do we think will be the outcome of certain problems.
1. Armed forces: Should they be given certain part of the Army Navy and RAF or should they raise their own forces? I think from my experience if the soldiers themselves were given the option the vast majority would elect for their units to remain in the reduced UK and if it didn't the soldiers would migrate,
This also feeds into the economy. Where will the new Scotland find the money to raise equip maintain and pay a new security force? And what would happen to military facilities like Faslane?
2. Currency. What would happen if the UK government refused them the use of Stirling? They couldn't use the euro as they would not be part of the EU, and despite all the rhetoric would not become a member for the foreseeable future.
3. Border controls if any. This shouldn't be a problem unless they start cosying up to regimes that affect the British national interests.
4. Scottish Nationals requiring residency permits to remain in UK.
5. Travel for people going on holiday will they still want to fly from the usual airports or will companies run more charters from Scotland and pass on the extra cost?
6. North Sea Oil. Such as it now is the SNP claims this is entirely Scottish but they'd have a job winning that argument in court. And the companies mining it would have a say too.
7. The EU. already mentioned but even if they do not join they will have to thrash out a separate trade deal with the EU. I think the Canada deal took 7 years. In the mean while they would not be able to trade normally with any part of Ireland. There would also be the question of the movement of goods to non-scottish ports, which then feeds into the taxing and registering of vehicles, particularly vehicles crossing into England/Ireland and whether drivers would need a green card or additional insurance to scottish domestic insurance.
8. The Scottish underlying debt. I believe this is now in the order of £8 billion. This has arisen apparently not because of underfunding from Westminster but because of the SNP government's profligacy. So would they expect the UK to clear this or would it be a burden round their neck from day 1? Bearing in mind they would have a much shrunken economy and more to pay for despite the increased tax income.
9. Is their health service in a fit state to serve the population, not least because of their huge drug and alcohol problems
The list could go on and it depends largely of the feelings on the break-ep. If the UK government wanted to play hard ball it would affect every level of life in Scotland and could be done without breaking any international laws, like requiring certain vaccinations for people crossing the border, non acceptance of Scottish education certificates for work in UK. Scots not being allowed to take a job in the remaining UK if there is a person already in UK who is qualified and out of work.
I think it would be unreasonable to assume that the UK government would allow Scotland to leave the union but still automatically enjoy all the benefits of being part of it. There must be a price to pay sooner or later.
If you have read this far thank you. If you are now bored to tears my apologies, but I have all these questions and no answers, so I'd love to know what others think. And I'm sure some will think of things I haven't.
Thanks for reading!I hope this won't get moved to the politics forum as it is not directl welsh politics and is just for general discussion and/or banter
Edit: and the final question, why is it you think you've fixed all the typos and then see loads more as soon as you post!!
If the whole UK voted I'm sure Scotland would stay. I can't see there's much enthusiasm for them to go amongst the majority of English people.
I wonder if England would ever consider having an independence vote?
Would save the other nations the trouble.
I think the SNP over estimate thier appeal , they get plenty of votes in normal elections as for that vote representing independence is another matter .
Yes I believe everyone should vote, as currently we've all part of a collective union.
Regarding the armed forces, nothing would change other than an independent Scotland having to contribute to the defence budget. I could not imagine any circumstances under which they would be prepared or allowed to create their own defence force.
Interesting post, good questions..I don't have any answers but why don't you mail all your questions to the SNP and let us know what they say.Originally Posted by xsnaggle
I have mulling over this and all it's implications for a while now. I don't pretend to have answers but wonder what other board members feel about certain aspects of it.
First of all who should vote? Should it be people from any nationality who reside in Scotland or only Scots? Should Scottish people living outside the country be entitled to vote as it is their homeland?
Or as it affects everyone in the UK should all UK citizens be allowed to vote? (Personally I think if this were the case they would probably be gone tomorrow, although it isn't my preferred option)
But assuming the vote is for separation what do we think will be the outcome of certain problems.
1. Armed forces: Should they be given certain part of the Army Navy and RAF or should they raise their own forces? I think from my experience if the soldiers themselves were given the option the vast majority would elect for their units to remain in the reduced UK and if it didn't the soldiers would migrate,
This also feeds into the economy. Where will the new Scotland find the money to raise equip maintain and pay a new security force? And what would happen to military facilities like Faslane?
2. Currency. What would happen if the UK government refused them the use of Stirling? They couldn't use the euro as they would not be part of the EU, and despite all the rhetoric would not become a member for the foreseeable future.
3. Border controls if any. This shouldn't be a problem unless they start cosying up to regimes that affect the British national interests.
4. Scottish Nationals requiring residency permits to remain in UK.
5. Travel for people going on holiday will they still want to fly from the usual airports or will companies run more charters from Scotland and pass on the extra cost?
6. North Sea Oil. Such as it now is the SNP claims this is entirely Scottish but they'd have a job winning that argument in court. And the companies mining it would have a say too.
7. The EU. already mentioned but even if they do not join they will have to thrash out a separate trade deal with the EU. I think the Canada deal took 7 years. In the mean while they would not be able to trade normally with any part of Ireland. There would also be the question of the movement of goods to non-scottish ports, which then feeds into the taxing and registering of vehicles, particularly vehicles crossing into England/Ireland and whether drivers would need a green card or additional insurance to scottish domestic insurance.
8. The Scottish underlying debt. I believe this is now in the order of £8 billion. This has arisen apparently not because of underfunding from Westminster but because of the SNP government's profligacy. So would they expect the UK to clear this or would it be a burden round their neck from day 1? Bearing in mind they would have a much shrunken economy and more to pay for despite the increased tax income.
9. Is their health service in a fit state to serve the population, not least because of their huge drug and alcohol problems
The list could go on and it depends largely of the feelings on the break-ep. If the UK government wanted to play hard ball it would affect every level of life in Scotland and could be done without breaking any international laws, like requiring certain vaccinations for people crossing the border, non acceptance of Scottish education certificates for work in UK. Scots not being allowed to take a job in the remaining UK if there is a person already in UK who is qualified and out of work.
I think it would be unreasonable to assume that the UK government would allow Scotland to leave the union but still automatically enjoy all the benefits of being part of it. There must be a price to pay sooner or later.
If you have read this far thank you. If you are now bored to tears my apologies, but I have all these questions and no answers, so I'd love to know what others think. And I'm sure some will think of things I haven't.
Thanks for reading!
Edit: and the final question, why is it you think you've fixed all the typos and then see loads more as soon as you post!!
If it was the norm for everyone in a country to vote for one state's independence then surely hardly any independent votes would go through.
Do you think the whole EU should have voted in the brexit referendum? I'm sure you don't.
Alex Salmond has today set up his own pro independence party which should muddy the waters. Personally, I don't see how they could survive as an independent nation without reopening the haggis mines.
Zap!
On a personal level I sincerely hope that if there is to be another referendum, the result is the same as the last one.
I have no particular affinity for the Scots but I would hate to see the break up of the Union.
The SNP seems to attract some of the most loathsome creatures on the planet. OK slightly OTT, but I really detest Ian Blackford, Alex Salmond and Mrs Krankie herself and hope that their plans for independence go up in smoke and they disappear into oblivion.
Scots living outside Scotland shouldn't have a vote unless there are exceptional circumstances. Just like I should have no vote in a Welsh referendum.
A Scottish person living in England would be massively affected by the vote. They would deserve a say.
How would they be massively affected? If they are that concerned they should move back to the region they want to have a say in.
And what criteria should apply to allow such people to vote? What defines anyone as being Scottish or having spent enough time in Scotland? Should a Devonian who lived for 20 years in Scotland have a vote after returning to Devon a year ago?
Should anyone have a say in the future of a country when they no longer live in it?
Should Scots who live abroad have a vote?
Should Scots who have lived for 10 years outside Scotland have a vote? Should those who may never have to endure the consequences of the vote have a say?
I think it's simpler and more logical for only those registered as a resident in Scotland to have a vote - and consistent with our current electoral system when voting for our MPs. Those contributing to the local economy and who use the services provided by the taxes they pay should have a say - and not an exile like me.
it was an idiotic decision to leave a huge trading partner on our doorstep by voting to leave Europe
Utter madness and stupidity , much of it based on ignorance , xenophobia and bullshit from the vote leave parties
And its going to come and bite us on the arse , big time
And Scotland leaving the UK would be a similarly stupid and wreckless decision , with long standing implications
As is Welsh independence
We know that the Welsh language was almost destroyed but its stronger now
We know that the UK economy over the years benefitted massively from Welsh coal , iron and steel and other heavy industry
But independence is not the answer
WWhy the zap. He's not catching me out is he? I already said I don't know the answers, I'm just trying to see what other peoples opinions are on the whole question.Zap!
I tend to agree with that and now Ms Sturgeon is peddling what some would say are lies and praying on the ignorance and phobia of people, such as telling them they would walk straight back into the EU. Their budget deficit alone would preclude that happening.
I believe it is a matter for the people of Scotland.
We were a part of a collective union in Europe but only we decided whether or not to stay in it or not.
I always find it difficult to comprehend those who make political arguments for independence such as SNP and Plaid, but hate Brexit, while I do understand the notion that they may dislike Westminster but not Brussels. The arguments about why self governance is good for their nation but Brexit is bad the for the UK often completely contradict each over.
Some people just don’t like Britain, Nation States and what they stand for.
Scottish/Welsh independence and Brexit are different things but how would you say self governance and Brexit completely contradict each other?
- Scottish people should be allowed to vote. I don't see any reason why the rest of the UK should
- If you thought breaking away from the EU was difficult then you ain't see nothing yet, and it will be harder again for Wales. We're 5 years from EU referendum and will probably take at least another year before Brexit is somewhat stabilized (in reality both sides will see need for re-negotiation and that will start so Brexit never really finished) but Scottish exit will take longer than that.
- The most likely result at the next election is a further Tory majority (re-writing boundary rules, funding rules, refusal to move past FPTP - the voting system is massively in their favour even before success as a party comes into it) so Scotland have a further 9 years of an anti-devolution, culture war driven, anti-European British government. I said Brexit will take at least another year (6 years) so can Scotland achieve some sort of stability of independence in the remaining 9 years and will they be better off at the end of that than having yet another Tory government they don't want throughout that time?
- Even if Scotland don't vote for independence, having the conversation about it and having a government preparing for it is going to make them a stronger nation than one dependent on "cross-boarder Tories" as they're positioning themselves in North Wales.
- Even if Scotland cannot leave the UK because it's too difficult, wouldn't it be nice if they didn't want to leave because staying part of the UK allowed them to achieve what they wanted to do without the break-up of the UK?
You could equally suggest that it's daft to support leaving one union while being entirely behind another one.
From my perspective, the more power that Westminster has to rule over Wales can only be a bad thing. We gave Westminster more power by leaving the EU. The next step is to remove devolved governments and have Westminster rule the entire UK. I fundamentally disagree with that.
Probably no such thing as self government but the interests of the EU and UK aligned 95% of the time and opposed only 2% of the time. Do you think the percentages would be the same for Scotland and the UK?Official EU voting records* show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix. In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts...-uk-influence/
Absolute nonsense!
The figures do not necessarily show that. There may have been occasions where the UK voted 'yes' and were on the losing side and other occasions where they voted 'no' and were on the winning side. Taken bare of any further information the numbers are pointless.
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