Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

[Elwood Blues]

Re: Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

Sludge, what is perceived as socialism in this country is actually just plain old left wing politics. It's because of so many other factors that people have moved to the right, including yourself in my opinion. The constant chipping by the media and the bosses seems to have worked, when people see plain old left wing policy as some kind of radicalism. If not for left wing policy, you and I wouldn't be having this vaccine through the NHS.

Ok I'll bite.

Why wouldn't there be a vaccine if not for left wing policy??

[WJ99mobile]

Re: Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

Everyone will be paying more tax, example 1 [ATTACH=CONFIG]4400[/ATTACH]

Wales is "too poor to be independent" but can afford things like this, the UK government and its political system wastes more money than anything in the world.

The small payments to the HOL pale into insignificance where the real public money is lost

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

Ok I'll bite.

Why wouldn't there be a vaccine if not for left wing policy??

Is not the NHS an example of left wing policy?

[xsnaggle]

Re: Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

Is not the NHS an example of left wing policy?

The NHS is the result of an investigation into health care which resulted in a cross party report known as the Beveridge report. One of the prime movers in this was Churchill who I think was then sitting as a Liberal MP.
Good as he was Bevan just happened to be the health minister who actioned it but it would have happened anyway. There were not really any alternatives.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

The NHS is the result of an investigation into health care which resulted in a cross party report known as the Beveridge report. One of the prime movers in this was Churchill who I think was then sitting as a Liberal MP.
Good as he was Bevan just happened to be the health minister who actioned it but it would have happened anyway. There were not really any alternatives.

Yet Churchill and the Tories voted against implementation of that report and the creation of the NHS.

[delmbox]

Re: Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

Yet Churchill and the Tories voted against implementation of that report and the creation of the NHS.

They did, 21 times, and Churchill was the PM when it came out in 1942 and was very non committal in his reaction to it, understandable perhaps because he had other things on his mind at the time but he was definitely not one of the "prime movers"

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/why-should-the-people-wait-any-longer-how-labour-built-the-nhs/

https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/beveridge-report-foundations-welfare-state/

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

They did, 21 times, and Churchill was the PM when it came out in 1942 and was very non committal in his reaction to it, understandable perhaps because he had other things on his mind at the time but he was definitely not one of the "prime movers"

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/why-should-the-people-wait-any-longer-how-labour-built-the-nhs/

https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk...welfare-state/

And in 1951 Winston Churchill's Tory government introduced prescription charges (they couldn't wait!).

It should be noted though that three years after the formation of the NHS, Bevan resigned after the introduction of fees for dentures, dental care, and glasses. There's no doubt that the guy was instrumental in the formation of and the principles of the NHS. If Atlee hadn't had won, there's no way the Tories would have implemented it no matter the cross-party consensus that something urgent re. the nation's health needed to be done post-WWII.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

And in 1951 Winston Churchill's Tory government introduced prescription charges (they couldn't wait!).

It should be noted though that three years after the formation of the NHS, Bevan resigned after the introduction of fees for dentures, dental care, and glasses. There's no doubt that the guy was instrumental in the formation of and the principles of the NHS. If Atlee hadn't had won, there's no way the Tories would have implemented it no matter the cross-party consensus that something urgent re. the nation's health needed to be done post-WWII.

never trust a tory

[Elwood Blues]

Re: Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

never trust a tory

Never trust most politicians of ANY persuasion!!

[Tuerto]

Re: Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

Ok I'll bite.

Why wouldn't there be a vaccine if not for left wing policy??

I didn't say that, did I? The rest you can work out for yourself.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

never trust a tory

Did you know that an anagram of 'never trust a tory' is 'overture tyrants'? How weird is that? Probably not as weird as me knowing it, admitting it, and posting it publicly though. I just couldn't stop myself.

[Elwood Blues]

Re: Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

Yet Churchill and the Tories voted against implementation of that report and the creation of the NHS.

Was there an actual vote against the Beveridge report???? I know that Churchill was lukewarm towards some of it but the conservative manifesto for the 1945 election shows that they were planning to introduce some of it if they had regained power.

There was a section on setting up a National Insurance system and on Health it says that -

"Everyone will contribute to the cost, and no one will be denied the attention, the treatment or the appliances he requires because he cannot afford them,"

Now, it does not say free at the point of use but the following newsreel of Henry Willink Churchill's Minister of Health explaining their White Paper of 1944 does say

"There will be no charge for treatment" this would cover any medicines, specialist advice and hospital treatment.
And in the next sentence he talks about a "National Health Service"

It was "not a cut and dried scheme" and the proposals were for discussion in parliament and the whole country

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyjbUK88CB4

I must admit I did expect Harry Enfield to appear as Grayson together with Mr Cholmondley Warner at some stage!!

More seriously it does show the intent of the Tories if they had got into power again. Whether they would have carried this intention through of course is another matter and I know many among you will dismiss it out of hand.

Undoubtedly it would have been different in some aspects of the final Labour NHS (in particular the Tories did not plan to nationalise all the local voluntary hospitals and take control away from the local authorities as Labour did) and this probably in part explains why they voted so firmly against Labour final version( which in itself was not supported by all those in government. Herbert Morrison for example was against transferring hospitals from the Local authorities to Central Government.

It is also quite possibly true that the Conservatives were guilty, as many parties out of government are, of opposition for oppositions sake; they couldn't implement their policy and didn't want anyone else to bring in an alternative.

Whatever the reason it was a mistake in my view because it has given Labour supporters the excuse down the years to say that there would have been no NHS without Labour.

I'm not sure In agree with this. What I do agree with is that you cannot take away from Labour the praise for giving us a National Health Service. The Conservatives and Liberals cannot claim this.

What they can say however is that they were part of a National Consensus arising out of the Beveridge report which saw that whichever party had got to power in 1945 it is probable that we would have had some form of National Health Service.

Different versions no doubt. And to be honest I have no idea whether Labours version which has lasted to this day was the best model or whether a less centralised model would have worked better in the long run.

But a National Health Service was probably inevitable after Beveridge.

l

[Elwood Blues]

Re: Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

I didn't say that, did I? The rest you can work out for yourself.

No you are right. I phrased that badly

What I meant to say was why wouldn't we be having a vaccine under the NHS.

And by that I presume you meant there would have no NHS if not for Labour.

My separate post in response to Eric gives you my view on this

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

No you are right. I phrased that badly

What I meant to say was why wouldn't we be having a vaccine under the NHS.

And by that I presume you meant there would have no NHS if not for Labour.

My separate post in response to Eric gives you my view on this

This is a genuine question to which I have no answer. I could look it up on google, but I think it would be more interesting added to the mix in this thread.

Are America having a mass vaccination program and is it free for everyone?

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Who Fancies paying more Income tax ?

This is a genuine question to which I have no answer. I could look it up on google, but I think it would be more interesting added to the mix in this thread.

Are America having a mass vaccination program and is it free for everyone?

Once asked, needed to find out. America is paying for all of its citizens to have Covid vaccinations, a decision made by the Republicans. I'm glad.