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Thread: Palestine Israel

  1. #101

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Why don’t you all discuss other current civil wars, many of which are taking place in many parts of the world? Just look at the numbers being killed elsewhere which are far heavier than the subject conflict.

    Also, the numbers killed by Hamas are misleading as they have attempted to kill far more Israelis than they have succeeded in doing - just look at the number of missiles they have launched against Israel!

  2. #102

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Feedback View Post
    any chance of a back story or is this simply accepting what we read on social media?

    could it be that the house originally belonged to the Jewish family but was claimed by the Palestinians in the 1920s and 1930s? Could it be the house was sole legitimately? could it be that the Jewish family paid money for it? Could it be the Palestinian couple were evicted to make way for the Jewish couple?

    none of us can be sure based on that photo alone
    While you're right to ask for more context, let's explore that a bit then shall we. We know where it is though and we have history, census etc so lets explore those....

    There were between 60,000 and 80,000 Jewish people in Palestine in 1920s and made up less than 17% of the population of Palestine. No Jewish homes were claimed by Palestinians in the 1920's. In 1517 there were only 5000 Jewish people living in Israel and that number didn't go up significantly (it only reached 60000 by the 1920s). Jewish people hadn't lived there in large volumes until the 1950's after the formation of Israel in 48.

    Additionally in the areas where Jewish 'settlers' have come to kick out the Palestinians haven't had Jewish people living there for 1000's of years (a small area of the West Bank the exception where a small Jewish population left in 1948 during the war.

    However, that is all academic as this case is in Ijzim, where there hadn't a Jewish population living there for thousands of years.... in 1922, the decade where you proposed that perhaps Palestinians took Jewish homes and now back to reclaim them, there were no Jewish people recorded in the 1922 census (1610 Muslims and 1 Christian!). In fact there have been NO recoded Jewish people living in Ljzim (now renamed Kerem Maharal) since recording began in 1596 until 2006 when Israel extended their illegal settlement policy!

    Native Americans have lost their land to settlers far more recently than Jewish ancestors lost theirs in the Israel / Palestine.

    The point is that this house has been stolen from Palestinians, breaking international law, under the right wing policy of the Israeli government to provide 'settlers' with homes and effectively making indigenous Palestinians homeless and squeezing them into an small geographical area stripping them of their rights and access to health and education and jobs .


    So feedback, you're scenario is preposterous both mathematically and geographically.

  3. #103

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanmore Bluebird View Post
    Why don’t you all discuss other current civil wars, many of which are taking place in many parts of the world? Just look at the numbers being killed elsewhere which are far heavier than the subject conflict.

    Also, the numbers killed by Hamas are misleading as they have attempted to kill far more Israelis than they have succeeded in doing - just look at the number of missiles they have launched against Israel!
    feel free to start another thread

  4. #104

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Because so many people on this board are preoccupied with Israel and conveniently forget that so many of its inhabitants are direct descendants/relatives of murdered Jews from the Nazi era. Many of the survivors of this era were refugees who managed to reach Israel.

  5. #105

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanmore Bluebird View Post
    Because so many people on this board are preoccupied with Israel and conveniently forget that so many of its inhabitants are direct descendants/relatives of murdered Jews from the Nazi era. Many of the survivors of this era were refugees who managed to reach Israel.
    We cannot blame Israel for not meekly accepting persecution/murder like too many of their descendants did in WW2. The current generation has become ‘harder’ and quite correctly learned how to defend itself. Just don’t focus so much upon Israel at the expense of other on-standing terrible atrocities elsewhere on the globe where far more genocide occurs.

  6. #106
    Feedback
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    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by AfricanBluebird View Post
    While you're right to ask for more context, let's explore that a bit then shall we. We know where it is though and we have history, census etc so lets explore those....

    There were between 60,000 and 80,000 Jewish people in Palestine in 1920s and made up less than 17% of the population of Palestine. No Jewish homes were claimed by Palestinians in the 1920's. In 1517 there were only 5000 Jewish people living in Israel and that number didn't go up significantly (it only reached 60000 by the 1920s). Jewish people hadn't lived there in large volumes until the 1950's after the formation of Israel in 48.

    Additionally in the areas where Jewish 'settlers' have come to kick out the Palestinians haven't had Jewish people living there for 1000's of years (a small area of the West Bank the exception where a small Jewish population left in 1948 during the war.

    However, that is all academic as this case is in Ijzim, where there hadn't a Jewish population living there for thousands of years.... in 1922, the decade where you proposed that perhaps Palestinians took Jewish homes and now back to reclaim them, there were no Jewish people recorded in the 1922 census (1610 Muslims and 1 Christian!). In fact there have been NO recoded Jewish people living in Ljzim (now renamed Kerem Maharal) since recording began in 1596 until 2006 when Israel extended their illegal settlement policy!

    Native Americans have lost their land to settlers far more recently than Jewish ancestors lost theirs in the Israel / Palestine.

    The point is that this house has been stolen from Palestinians, breaking international law, under the right wing policy of the Israeli government to provide 'settlers' with homes and effectively making indigenous Palestinians homeless and squeezing them into an small geographical area stripping them of their rights and access to health and education and jobs .


    So feedback, you're scenario is preposterous both mathematically and geographically.
    I've asked for evidence that this particular house was taken from Palestinians, not a history lesson.

    but regarding your own post, you're very selective about when you start looking at the number of Jews in the Levant. Around the start of the 7th century, there were, according to various estimates, between 150,000-400,000 and the number of Arabs was nil. Move forward a hundred yeas, following the Muslim conquest and the figures change quite dramatically.

    The Jews were in the Levant way before the Arabs, and were forcibly displaced following military conquest. You ignore this rather conveniently.

    You also forget that many Jews were expelled from the Levant under the Ottoman's, who preferred their Muslim Palestinian brothers ahead of the Jew diaspora who had been living in the Levant for many generations.

    This issue did not start in the 1920s, and what we are seeing today is one of many rounds of conflict where Jew or Arab have had the upper hand and hegemony.

    Turning to the modern day, the Jews accepted the partition plan, the Arabs did not. The Jews have quite literally been fighting for Israel's existence ever since, having been invaded twice by the Arabs, who have had their arses handed to them on a plate both times.

    Until Hamas accepts Israel has a right to exist, which is international law (resolution 181 (II)), Israel is within its rights to defend itself.

    turning to my scenario, I asked for evidence of this one particular example cited by RJK. All we have had in return is bluster and rhetoric about what may have happened. no evidence has been provided so on that basis, it is difficult to form an opinion on this particular case.

  7. #107

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanmore Bluebird View Post
    Because so many people on this board are preoccupied with Israel and conveniently forget that so many of its inhabitants are direct descendants/relatives of murdered Jews from the Nazi era. Many of the survivors of this era were refugees who managed to reach Israel.
    No one has forgotten what happened to the Jews and it is disingenuous to people on this board to suggest that.

    You won't find holocaust deniers here and you won't find people who have no sympathy with what the Jewish people went through during and after the war.

    You also won't find many people who don't support Israel's right to exist or defend itself.

    However, whatever the Jewish people have gone through, does not give the current right-wing Israeli government to right to break international law, pursue a policy of ejecting Palestinians from their homes, squeezing Palestinians into an increasing smaller geographical area, denying services, a brutal policy of discrimination and provoking communities by attacking holy sites.

  8. #108

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Feedback View Post
    I've asked for evidence that this particular house was taken from Palestinians, not a history lesson.

    but regarding your own post, you're very selective about when you start looking at the number of Jews in the Levant. Around the start of the 7th century, there were, according to various estimates, between 150,000-400,000 and the number of Arabs was nil. Move forward a hundred yeas, following the Muslim conquest and the figures change quite dramatically.

    The Jews were in the Levant way before the Arabs, and were forcibly displaced following military conquest. You ignore this rather conveniently.

    You also forget that many Jews were expelled from the Levant under the Ottoman's, who preferred their Muslim Palestinian brothers ahead of the Jew diaspora who had been living in the Levant for many generations.

    This issue did not start in the 1920s, and what we are seeing today is one of many rounds of conflict where Jew or Arab have had the upper hand and hegemony.

    Turning to the modern day, the Jews accepted the partition plan, the Arabs did not. The Jews have quite literally been fighting for Israel's existence ever since, having been invaded twice by the Arabs, who have had their arses handed to them on a plate both times.

    Until Hamas accepts Israel has a right to exist, which is international law (resolution 181 (II)), Israel is within its rights to defend itself.

    turning to my scenario, I asked for evidence of this one particular example cited by RJK. All we have had in return is bluster and rhetoric about what may have happened. no evidence has been provided so on that basis, it is difficult to form an opinion on this particular case.
    You proposed that 'perhaps' this Palestinian family had illegally taken the house from the Jewish family in the 20's or 30's. As stated based on the geography of the town - that would have been impossible. Also, look at the demographics of the Jewish people from the US who have come to Israel to settle. These are not families who's parents were living in this town in the 20s and 30s.

    However, in this specific case you are right in that we all lack context. We do know that these settlements are breaking international law and widely condemned.

  9. #109

    Re: Palestine Israel

    As an aside, as much as there is criticism for Israel here we must not forget how awful the surrounding Arab nations are towards Israel and also the Palestinians. They too, should not be excluded from criticism as they have allowed their fellow arabs in Palestine to be used as political tools against the Israelis without helping or alleviating human suffering.

  10. #110

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanmore Bluebird View Post
    Because so many people on this board are preoccupied with Israel and conveniently forget that so many of its inhabitants are direct descendants/relatives of murdered Jews from the Nazi era. Many of the survivors of this era were refugees who managed to reach Israel.
    So, not a great deal was learnt by the actions of one man who decided to turf people out of their homes and businesses, then attempt to murder them because they have the audacity to retaliate. Israel is a rogue state and their flag represents apartheid.

  11. #111
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    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanmore Bluebird View Post
    Because so many people on this board are preoccupied with Israel and conveniently forget that so many of its inhabitants are direct descendants/relatives of murdered Jews from the Nazi era. Many of the survivors of this era were refugees who managed to reach Israel.
    The hatred of Jews and the state is world wide , we see many campaigns against racism is mystifying , even last week a rabbi was beaten up on the UK , graves are still damaged around the world and in the UK some are blind to the nastiness of subsides groups like Hamas who don't give a flying duck about innocents are peace as there hatred towards Israel and Jew is greater .

    If Israel surrendered its war like self defence ( which can be disproportioned) they would be invaded bombed routed and killed out of existence , I can image being somewhere where every one around you hates you creates this behaviour .

  12. #112

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by AfricanBluebird View Post

    You won't find holocaust deniers here
    Not since Organ Morgan was last here anyway

  13. #113
    Feedback
    Guest

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by AfricanBluebird View Post
    You proposed that 'perhaps' this Palestinian family had illegally taken the house from the Jewish family in the 20's or 30's. As stated based on the geography of the town - that would have been impossible. Also, look at the demographics of the Jewish people from the US who have come to Israel to settle. These are not families who's parents were living in this town in the 20s and 30s.

    However, in this specific case you are right in that we all lack context. We do know that these settlements are breaking international law and widely condemned.
    My fault. I shouldn't have been too specific about the dates the Jews were expelled, but they were. So does it matter if it was the 1920s or 1850s or whenever? The Jews were booted out of their homes which were given to Arab Muslims. That was my point.

    So in this case this home may have once been a Jewish home which Israel are now reclaiming. Or it may have always been an Arab home. I dont know.

    All we know is that until these two people (genetically more like one people) learn to get along, there will always be mistrust and killings from both sides.

  14. #114

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanmore Bluebird View Post
    Because so many people on this board are preoccupied with Israel and conveniently forget that so many of its inhabitants are direct descendants/relatives of murdered Jews from the Nazi era. Many of the survivors of this era were refugees who managed to reach Israel.
    I don't believe that is forgotten. In fact, the horrific way Jewish people were treated while living in Europe and the UK's involvement in leaving the disputed land is probably why there is such an interest in what's going on and in comparison other civil wars get less attention.

  15. #115

    Re: Palestine Israel

    nobody wants the Jewish people to be persecuted, or wants to remove Israel from the map. even if some of us think that setting it up in the way that it was was a big mistake, it is too late to undo that now.
    furthermore, if I had to choose one nation in the region to live in it would almost certainly be Israel , for all that is wrong there many of the neighbouring countries have oppressive regimes too.

    take Iran for example. Iranian people are warm and friendly, the women are beautiful, the food is amazing and it has beaches, mountains, historic cities, but unfortunately it is ruled currently by religious fanatics, who I certainly would not want to get on the wrong side of.
    because of the actions of the people in control there have been strict sanctions on Iran off and on since the 1970s.
    are they effective? I don't know. I would clearly prefer to see Iran emerge as a free democracy and would love to visit if it does.

    I think why so many people are drawn to comment on Israel, is they see them doing horrendous things to the Arabic population living on the land and there is never any pushback from the western governments.
    also because there is always someone along to rush to their defence - if I criticise China's treatment of a minority group there most likely people will say yes it is terrible. if I criticise what Israel does to the Palestinians there are always people who will justify it - I think that's why these threads become more prominent

  16. #116

    Re: Palestine Israel

    The history of this area is ugly and complicated (and as ever the UK plays a role in that) and makes people reluctant to pay attention for any length of time but, in my opinion, only if we're still paying as much attention in the month after a ceasefire is called will any progress be made. Otherwise there will be fresh violence further down the line with Palestinians saying it's the only time the world pays attention and the Israeli government saying it's exactly why they should be allowed to defend itself in any way necessary.

  17. #117
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    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    nobody wants the Jewish people to be persecuted, or wants to remove Israel from the map. even if some of us think that setting it up in the way that it was was a big mistake, it is too late to undo that now.
    furthermore, if I had to choose one nation in the region to live in it would almost certainly be Israel , for all that is wrong there many of the neighbouring countries have oppressive regimes too.

    take Iran for example. Iranian people are warm and friendly, the women are beautiful, the food is amazing and it has beaches, mountains, historic cities, but unfortunately it is ruled currently by religious fanatics, who I certainly would not want to get on the wrong side of.
    because of the actions of the people in control there have been strict sanctions on Iran off and on since the 1970s.
    are they effective? I don't know. I would clearly prefer to see Iran emerge as a free democracy and would love to visit if it does.

    I think why so many people are drawn to comment on Israel, is they see them doing horrendous things to the Arabic population living on the land and there is never any pushback from the western governments.
    also because there is always someone along to rush to their defence - if I criticise China's treatment of a minority group there most likely people will say yes it is terrible. if I criticise what Israel does to the Palestinians there are always people who will justify it - I think that's why these threads become more prominent
    you start of by saying that no one wants to see Israel wiped off the map then talk at length about Iran. I would suggest you read up on what Iran thinks of Israel, as well as Hamas and many other groups in the middle east and north africa.

    and yes, some Persian women are seriously top end

  18. #118

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Feedback View Post
    you start of by saying that no one wants to see Israel wiped off the map then talk at length about Iran. I would suggest you read up on what Iran thinks of Israel, as well as Hamas and many other groups in the middle east and north africa.

    and yes, some Persian women are seriously top end
    I meant nobody on *here* really.
    Although the oft quoted statement by the former Iranian prime-minister is very much out of context - I am confident that the vast majority of people in the region from any nation don't want to wipe any nation off the map, they just want to live their own life

  19. #119
    Feedback
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    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    I meant nobody on *here* really.
    Although the oft quoted statement by the former Iranian prime-minister is very much out of context - I am confident that the vast majority of people in the region from any nation don't want to wipe any nation off the map, they just want to live their own life
    Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's words may have been taken out of context, but he does not believe in the state of Israel and refuses to recognise it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmou...dinejad#Israel

    as for the rest, i agree, most people want a peaceful life, however those in power are not most people.

  20. #120

    Re: Palestine Israel

    See these words:

    HTTPS:www.Instagram.com/tv/CPAbdFRnOj1/

    How true is this 100%!!!

  21. #121
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    Re: Palestine Israel

    Anyways where's the marches and outrage around the many thousands of deaths Turkey has delivered on the Kurds in Northern Iraq many innocents dead . 20k alledgly, not sure if anyone is counting ?

    Or do we only raise outrage around certain politically motivated issues.

    Media is almost silent as are the far left.

  22. #122

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanmore Bluebird View Post
    Because so many people on this board are preoccupied with Israel and conveniently forget that so many of its inhabitants are direct descendants/relatives of murdered Jews from the Nazi era. Many of the survivors of this era were refugees who managed to reach Israel.
    You know that a lot of these people who have parachuted into the state of Israel are landing in settlements that were stolen from Arab people ? And its still happening . If I was an Arab I would throw a rock .

  23. #123

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Anyways where's the marches and outrage around the many thousands of deaths Turkey has delivered on the Kurds in Northern Iraq many innocents dead . 20k alledgly, not sure if anyone is counting ?

    Or do we only raise outrage around certain politically motivated issues.

    Media is almost silent as are the far left.
    A quick search of Google will show that the only publication relentlessly covering what is happening to the Kurds is the morning star and the only people willing to talk about it are from the left.

  24. #124

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanmore Bluebird View Post
    Why don’t you all discuss other current civil wars, many of which are taking place in many parts of the world? Just look at the numbers being killed elsewhere which are far heavier than the subject conflict.

    Also, the numbers killed by Hamas are misleading as they have attempted to kill far more Israelis than they have succeeded in doing - just look at the number of missiles they have launched against Israel!
    If you are fighting a giant , backed by other giants ......Israel and America ......then fireworks even hundreds of home made rockets , most of which don't make it , blow up those firing them or get shot down .........and you are faced by a huge , armoured , military force ......occupying a place you used to live then I think its fair enough to have a go

    I would

  25. #125

    Re: Palestine Israel

    The actions of the settlers in the new settlements, and the actions in sheikh Jarrah were an absolute disgrace. The ultra right wing, enabled by Netanyahu are guilty of breaking international law and should be punished.

    But I cringe when I see some of the outright condemnations of Israels existence, the idea that it was 'thrust' into Arab land. Lots of countries were created around that time in that area, their neighbours Jordan being one of them, Saudi Arabia another.

    The ottoman empire had encompassed a massive area and its breakup was always going to lead to change.

    I'm not defending all of Israels actions towards the Palestinians. Lots of them have been horrendous, and as a powerful democratic country Israel should act better. But the overwhelming hostility and aggression has always been towards Israel from its neighbours .

    In terms of the current conflict, the actions of the settlers in Jerusalem were a disgrace. But the general consensus was that the Israeli High Court were probably going to throw the settlers claims out. For Hamas to launch 300 rockets at civilians as 'retaliation ' , is bloodthirsty terrorism at its finest. Some of the targets Israel has bombed in Gaza also mean they deserve contempt.

    After the Trump administration enabled the very worst desires of the extreme Israeli right wing. I suppose it was always inevitable that something would happen early on in Bidens term. It suits the agenda of Hamas and the extreme right in Israel to know where Biden stands, so they know how far they can push their agenda. We need to see an end of Hamas and Netanyahu, hopefully this will happen soon

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