Reply With Quotebut if they'd identified IRA leaders in a tower block across the border in Ireland you'd be ok with it?Originally Posted by Feedback
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On page 2 of this thread Feedback posted:
"the arabs have invaded israel twice in the past 60 years, and twice have had their arses handed to them on a plate. At some point they will learn not to **** with the IDF"
It's possible that they were having a bad moment but several posts now from them have been about "being aware of our own bias" or "think critically about 'evidence'" we see online, which is all very noble, but a significant change in tone. They've also spent 9 messages questioning evidence of encroachment into Palestinian land only to post that it's common knowledge in their 10th post on the subject.
Again a very noble change in direction, but what should we really be focusing on instead?
The Web Editor of Jewish News posted this yesterday: https://twitter.com/Mendelpol/status...98089231626243
The eyes of the world are turning to something else but they really shouldn't be. If Hamas claim the only time the plight of Palestine is paid attention to is with rockets and Israeli government say they're under threat of violence can we say either is lying? But the Israeli government responds to that threat in an oppressive and hardline way in moments of ceasefire, and progress can only be made when attention is paid in times of relative peace.Israel and Hamas have a ceasefire. The next morning, Israel reportedly storms Al Aqsa, which was the trigger for the last 11 days of brutal violence.
I honestly despair
....
I can't help but think more violence would be beneficial for Benjamin Netanyahu's bid to cling on to power - and it would probably be beneficial for Hamas too - who if they ever did have to face a PA election, have multiple wars where they have not been defeated
Ultimately, whatever the governments in Israel and Palestine think they can get out of this - there are lots of dead people who probably disagree it was worth it. Including dead children, who did nothing to deserve their fate. Time for some moral leadership..
....
I tell you what's exhausting..
The predictable knee-jerk response to this, every single time.
Who cares who started this? Israel routinely now goes onto Temple Mt enflaming tension. Worshipers routinely provoke, and are incited.
Nobody wins, regardless of 'who started it'
'Who started it'? The same people who benefit from it. Extremists.
Aa terror organisation running Gaza telling people to engage in a 'day of rage', and a maniacal PM in Israel, facing corruption charges, who wants to prolong conflict for political gain
but if they'd identified IRA leaders in a tower block across the border in Ireland you'd be ok with it?
Get america to give them money to shoot down the mostly feeble rockets fired against them
Mossad kidnaps Palestinians, Palestinians kidnap Israelis
Pay for better anti tunneling detection equipment , they have lots of money
If I moved into someone's house I would be prepared for them to be pissed off for a very very long time
You're creating a strawman and I'm not getting involved
Thats marriage for you
My position hasn't changed. It's a cluster**** of a shitshow with neither side preparedto back down.
I agree it's a bit one sided but it's easy to say Israel should show restraint when you're sat here in the relative safety of the UK.
Israel has a right to defend itself and its citizens. If Hamas didn't kidnap and/or fire rockets then Israel would have no (legitimate) reason.
I dont know what the answer is, maybe a single state where all races and religions have equal status protected by law.
Until they both learn to get along, things will continue and people on both sides will be killed
Got no time for the settlers and settlements whatsoever. But a few people seem to want to suggest that the whole state of Israel is on stolen land, which is quite frankly bollocks. Let's not pretend that all the hatred towards them from their neighbours is down to settlements and continued encroachment. Ham's and Hezbollah hate them because they are Jews, and because they exist as Jews. Criticism of the excesses of the Israeli right is completely justified, but to many like Sludge go for crass generalisations that attempt to deligitimise the whole country
I'd like to know why we haven't had the same debate and rage about Turkeys incursion into Northern Iraq and the twenty thousand deaths including women and children, thousands March in cities around the world because of Israel incursions and actions ,anyone explain why there is a disproportionate outrage?
Plus China incursions.
Plus Russian incursions.
It's fairly clear folk hate the Israelis and Jews.
Obviously anti-Semitism is awful and should be challenged. Though the protests seen have appeared to be under one banner there are going to be some rotters in attendance who move in very different circles and have their own agenda.I have received more Anti-Semitic hatred and abuse this week than at any other time in my life. In London and New York Anti-Semitic attacks have taken place & the Jewish community feels deeply unsafe. I stand against antisemitism. Stand with me. Stand with us. Racism is racism.
https://twitter.com/JolyonRubs/statu...35181799256065
I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. There are so many great things about Israel, its a lively democracy and home to fantastic world beating cities like Tel aviv. I hold them to a higher standard than Turkey and China, and I hope that they start to behave a bit better in lots of areas
I have put forward a possible answer earlier on...
Significant parts of the history of Europe is how badly Jewish people were treated (Nazism is a tiny part of it) which i) emboldened the want for security of own state but also ii) makes the creation of that state feel like an extended part of European history.
The UK was heavily involved in the area we now know as Israel/Palestine and hasty exit helped create the vacuum for an ugly conflict between the two nations. Therefore creation of Israel and following conflict is part of the UK's history.
The UK is close allies with the USA which is an extremely close ally of Israel. Therefore Israel is part of the UK's ongoing international relations.
Does Turkey and Iraq have such historical and current prominence to Europe and the UK? Regardless, I think for the most those concerned with ongoing treatment (it doesn't end with ceasefire) of Palestinian people are concerned with the behaviour rather than the flags involved so would welcome a thread on the subjects you raised. I'll meet you there if you want to start one?
Behaving better such as not killing kids
I mean even the most precise of weapons feck up once in a while but this has been going on for years
I think moving in hundreds of thousands of people from America, Russia , Australia into lands previously occupied by the Palestinians, all because its , according to the Jews, their homeland ........its all utter horse shit this religion nonsense ......is only going to end one way
Why isn't Palestine a legitimate country ?
Why does Israel have a right to exist .....and expand ....but the Palestinians are left to suffer ?
There is one rule for Israel and another for everybody else
Thank god for the moderate Jewish community in Israel and all around the world who are outraged by the continual muscle flexing of Benyamin and his acolytes
if Israel is such a lively democracy how come its been accused of breaking the Geneva convention so many times and has been investigated for war crimes ?
I won't disagree that there should be a country of Palestine. I think the Israelis should give up the illegal settlements in order for that to happen. But Israel was under attack long before it started the creeping settlement programme. The threats to Israel won't go away if/when they give up the settlements.
I'm happy to disagree with settlement building and I'm happy to disagree with their recent bombing of gaza .
Not prepared to swallow bullshit like the idea that Hamas rockets are just big fireworks, or that Hamas only dislike Israel because of settlements. To believe that requires you to infantilise the Palestinians and to completely disregard what the likes of Hamas and Islamic jihad declare themselves.
food for thought
well the rockets fired by Hamas are hardly the 2021 high precision stuff Israel has
Jews and Arabs have lived side by side for hundreds of years in Iraq , Iran , Syria
Since the creation of Israel its all gone ties up
And since the increasing settlement encroachment its escalated
Its all bullshit based on cobblers written in the bible
Its 2021 and its still going on
Its never going to end
If Israel stopped bullying Palestine and the Palestinians got more of their land back would Palestine then stop funding and supporting terrorism. would, could a Palestinian government rid the world of Hamas or would it simply move operations to another destination?
They haven't lived side by side peacefully though sludge. The Jews have been expelled from the Levant on numerous occasions, either by various caliphates, the Christians or the Ottomans.
Stop trying to rewrite history.
This is a good point sludge.
Just because a government is democratically elected doesn't mean that country demonstrates the virtues and standards that are globally, rightly or wrongly, expected by a 'lively democracy'.
'Capatalist democracy' isn't a panacea for how countries should be run.
I understand that in the UK, we are kinda in a glass house here though.
Between 1940-1970 over 800k Jews had to leave Arab controlled lands. Quite a few settled in Israel.
Prior to this time many Arab lands were controlled by the French and British, and Jews could live peacefully. Following pan Arab nationalism, many Jews were expelled, being forced to leave their property. This has happened within living memory.
When you consider that throughout history the Jews have been expelled more times than you would care to count (believe it or not Jews were expelled by General Grant from a few border states in the US Civil War)., it comes as no surprise that the Jews want a place they can call their home. It should also come as no surprise that many Jews don't trust the Arabs, a group of people who have persecuted the Jews in recent times, invaded their nation twice and, for a sizeable proportion of the Arab nation, wish to see Israel removed from existence.
Religion
All bollocks
Of course Palestine should be recognised as a separate country.
However, people are deluded if they think Hamas or Israel really want that
The Palestinian people do as does most of the world... But Israel and Hamas do not, despite their counter narrative.
Think about it... If Israel and the rest of the world recognise Palestine as a sovereign state, then the persecution and crimes against Palestinians will then be war crimes. Currently, as silly as it sounds, they are not defined by international law as war crimes.
I clashed with an evangelical conservative Christian about it this morning, who stormed out of the gym we were using. Batshit crazy. Their belief is tied up with the physical return of Jesus (from the clouds), the last days and the destruction of Israel. Theology that has only existed for a few hundred years. No serious theologian takes seriously apart from untrained born again Christian pastors and followers.
So add 'end times' into the mix and you have some very strong feelings
Interestingly, these views were held by a hell of a lot of people in the Trump administration.
Lots has gone tits up since the creation of Israel. That doesn't mean it was allndown to their bad behaviour though, some was but lots was down to the fact that the Muslim population were taught to hate jews.
I may be wrong, but it seems a bit like you have as much of a problem with the existence of Israel, as you do with their actions.
As for the religion is bollocks idea. Well again I'm 100 % in agreement with you. Only problem is , you seem to use that as a cop out for any bad behaviour from the Arab side. Then zero in again on any Israeli aggression.
Very strange generalisation there.
Hamas don't want 2 States- you're correct there
Palestinian people do want 2 states - incorrect, many of them do want 2 states . But many are happy to support the Hamas agenda. They want to exterminate the Jews rather than have them next door.
Israel doesn't- incorrect
many in Israel do. In much the same way as many Palestinians do. In fact with both Israelis and Palestinians, it tends to depend on when the poll is taken. The extreme right of Israelis, and people like Netanyahu who enable them don't want 2 states. So if by Israel, you meant the current Israeli government you would be correct.
As for the counter narrative. There is very little from Hamas that has ever even pretended they would support a 2 state solution. The odd quote has suggested they would accept a long term ceasefire with an Israeli state. Their manifesto continues to call for the destruction of the 'zionist entity' however.
I'm a bit more optimistic than most about the potential for a settlement.
To stay in the spirit of crass generalisation:
Both sides are losing the support that allows them to behave badly.
Many of the Arab states have grown sick and tired of the Palestinians . They see that they are willing to live in shit conditions as long as they think they have a possibility of exterminating the Jews . They see that the Palestinians are more interested in destroying Israel than improving their own lot. Qatar and the UAE have both reprimanded Hamas for the rockets this time. Development funding is going to be linked to Hamas behaving better.
As for the extreme right-wing Israelis. They decided to cosy up to Trump. By doing that they have burned a hell of a lot of moderate bridges in the US. Defensive Israeli capabilities will still be supported. But I think the Israeli right now know that they can't count on complete US support for everything they do. Biden has been clear on this, and many in the Democrats have been even more forthright. Hopefully the next 4 or 8 years will see a rolling back of settlements and some concrete pullbacks from East Jerusalem
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