Analytics and recruitment at non league level.

[J R Hartley]

I dont believe for one second Hereford are employing 12 full time recruitment staff.

[J R Hartley]

JR, I could have mares on here daily but one thing I wouldn't do is follow you round like a stale guff having snide remarks for the best part of 7 months like you did to me.

I knew you were smarting but that is beyond.

Cobblers. Trust me, you're not that significant.

Called you out a few times and you didnt like it. Seems like most of the forum have cottoned onto your negativity now though, which is good to see.

[Citizen's Nephew]

There is undoubtedly a strong use case for data analysis in football, but by the admission of even its biggest proponents, it's still pretty limited in terms of affecting the match result on a Saturday. There are simply too many variables and human factors that can't be accurately recreated in a data model (and is a big reason I guess why "older" coaches are more hostile to it).

The biggest challenge is finding the most effective and useful application for it, which is still an ongoing process in the industry as a whole. For instance, you can see clearly where it can make an impact in regimented sports like NFL or baseball, but the game of football is too non-linear and uncontrolled. That said, at the elite level, that 0.01% can often be the difference, so maybe it is worth the hours spent.

Of course, one area where it is proven is in recruitment, especially when used in conjunction with more traditional methods of scouting. Brentford are a great example of that. Things like xG are another useful metric, but even then there are debates in DA circles about what constitutes an xG and what doesn't.

So there is a role for data analysts in football, but I'm not sure they carry the kind of value that demands big bucks - YET.

Really interesting post and 0.1% making a difference and YET at the end and are really big points. Also just wanted to you in Cyprus as I'm one-quarter Greek Cypriot. Do you follow any of the Cypriot teams? AC Omonia?

[life on mars]

Perhaps Analytics and recruitment at non league level is good value for them , these teams wont be blessed with a lot of back room support .

[blue lewj]

Cobblers. Trust me, you're not that significant.

Called you out a few times and you didnt like it. Seems like most of the forum have cottoned onto your negativity now though, which is good to see.

Called me out? For Harris? You were wrong. He was diabolical. Deal with it.

As for negativity weren't you calling for Mick's head the day he was appointed?

What isn't cobblers is one person here has followed the other around having snide digs since Harris has been sacked. The other has, until today, ignored the other. I'll let you judge which is which.

[Citizen's Nephew]

here is the job advert from Bristol Rovers:
I am really interested in this area, and I'd probably consider learning python and switching careers to get into it, but that's just not possible as its so poorly paid at almost all clubs.

That's really interesting. I was forced to change careers because of MS so ended up combining as much as possible from pharma dev. and clinical trial analyses and my love of gaming which is how I moved into game dev and 3D animation. You should so learn Python. Prepare yourself now and RStudio is Open Source so you can play with that and learn it in your own time. These jobs are going to be more important and anyway, learning to code is very liberating. Whatever age or background.

I was going to say something the other day when you posted some stats that the mathematical algorithms used by large Game Development and Sim Racing companies are all transferable skills e.g. complex RPGs have massive amounts of data analyses especially when it comes to competitive eSports (Asian turn based competitions are huge!). If you ever want to chat through anything the just contact me here.

[Rjk]

That's really interesting. I was forced to change careers because of MS so ended up combining as much as possible from pharma dev. and clinical trial analyses and my love of gaming which is how I moved into game dev and 3D animation. You should so learn Python. Prepare yourself now and RStudio is Open Source so you can play with that and learn it in your own time. These jobs are going to be more important and anyway, learning to code is very liberating. Whatever age or background.

I was going to say something the other day when you posted some stats that the mathematical algorithms used by large Game Development and Sim Racing companies are all transferable skills e.g. complex RPGs have massive amounts of data analyses especially when it comes to competitive eSports (Asian turn based competitions are huge!). If you ever want to chat through anything the just contact me here.

Thank, that's interesting - I doubt I'll ever do it unless I can afford to take a big pay cut (which is extremely unlikely)

[Bald Barry Bastad]

Interesting stuff. Hereford are my second club. Encouraged at the way they are going about doing things. Would not be surprised if this makes a difference in the next few years.

[the other bob wilson]

I dont believe for one second Hereford are employing 12 full time recruitment staff.

Neither do I, it sounds like they been hired from an agency, but they’re probably devoting a decent proportion of their budget to it.

[Rjk]

Neither do I, it sounds like they been hired from an agency, but they’re probably devoting a decent proportion of their budget to it.

The article says that they are undergraduates studying this kind of thing, so I doubt they're paying very much for it. If anything

[J R Hartley]

Neither do I, it sounds like they been hired from an agency, but they’re probably devoting a decent proportion of their budget to it.

Youve implied, more than once, on this thread that Hereford are spending more than than City on recruitment and analysis. Hereford, by the sounds of it, have hired some university students, probably on a short term contract or even work experience. City however have full-time staff on their books. There is no way Hereford spend more than City on either recruitment or analysis.

Weve now started to sign players from lower league, looking to cut our cloth accordingly, (some you win ie Nelson and Ng, some you lose ie Whyte and Watters) and yet people still moan.

The club is damned if it does, and damned if it doesnt.

[Des Parrot]

Don’t know about the analysts but Hereford’s playing staff budget was about £12k a week a couple of seasons ago, that’s a big budget to cover at that level.

[J R Hartley]

Don’t know about the analysts but Hereford’s playing staff budget was about £12k a week a couple of seasons ago, that’s a big budget to cover at that level.

They took Merthyrs manager at the time - Steve Jenkins - to become their assistant manger and they were a division or two below Merthyr. They were blowing teams out of the water with their spending.

[the other bob wilson]

Youve implied, more than once, on this thread that Hereford are spending more than than City on recruitment and analysis. Hereford, by the sounds of it, have hired some university students, probably on a short term contract or even work experience. City however have full-time staff on their books. There is no way Hereford spend more than City on either recruitment or analysis.

Weve now started to sign players from lower league, looking to cut our cloth accordingly, (some you win ie Nelson and Ng, some you lose ie Whyte and Watters) and yet people still moan.

The club is damned if it does, and damned if it doesnt.

Not quite true, I said we probably did spend more, but if I was implying anything, it was that the question I asked could be asked when, by rights, there should be no way that it would even be contemplated.

You use Nelson as an example of a new approach by City, he isn’t. He was signed in the summer of 2019 when Warnock was given licence to turn the team into what Nathan Blake calls “Warnockball on steroids” and spend a fortune doing it. Nelson was a signing completely out of character with the others we made during that window for a few reasons, one of which being he was a good recruit, and I would say that our business in general during that time was a very good, if inadvertent, advert for analytics and a money ball approach as you could hope to see.

Hopefully, the signings of players like Ng and Wintle is an indication of a new approach by the club and I’ll compliment them if it turns out that it is, but I remain to be convinced that this conversion to shopping in the lower leagues for younger players, although welcome, is anything else but a measure forced on the club by the consequences of Covid.

[surge]

...

Hopefully, the signings of players like Ng and Wintle is an indication of a new approach by the club and I’ll compliment them if it turns out that it is, but I remain to be convinced that this conversion to shopping in the lower leagues for younger players, although welcome, is anything else but a measure forced on the club by the consequences of Covid.

Post-Warnock, pre-covid transfer business:

1st window: Dion Sanderson, Brad Smith, Albert Adomah
2nd window: Kieffer Moore, Dillon Phillips, Sheyi Ojo, Filip Benković, Harry Wilson, Jordi Osei-Tutu, Oliver Denham, Chanka Zimba, Camron McWilliams, Rolan Idowu,

Majority of players signed under the aged 25 or under with those in bold the exceptions.

Covid plus Brexit may explain the change in approach across the Championship (this article explains how it's unlikely we'll get another Brentford because much harder to buy players from the league's they went shopping in: https://andywatsonsport.wordpress.co...hips-shoppers/) but our club is hardly known for shopping abroad.

It seems clear there was a big shift when Harris came in and though Mick has stepped back from that a little it's still heading in a younger, more skillful direction for players brought into the side. Remains to be seen whether it will be telling on the pitch or whether others are starting further down the line/travelling quicker than us so ultimately won't be noticeable on the pitch.

[tforturton]

This is an interesting story, not just that a non-league club is using data to shape their recruitment, but also that the data is available for them to use. Who'd have thought? The guys says that his players are all part-time, yet someone is clearly collecting data on players, even at that level. Mind-boggling.

[tforturton]

They took Merthyrs manager at the time - Steve Jenkins - to become their assistant manger and they were a division or two below Merthyr. They were blowing teams out of the water with their spending.

The article says they get 3,000 at home games. That's a staggering figure at that level. It would be pretty good for a Conference side.

[Citizen's Nephew]

The article says they get 3,000 at home games. That's a staggering figure at that level. It would be pretty good for a Conference side.

It is a staggering figure. Newport pre-covid were averaging only 3,193.

[Des Parrot]

This is an interesting story, not just that a non-league club is using data to shape their recruitment, but also that the data is available for them to use. Who'd have thought? The guys says that his players are all part-time, yet someone is clearly collecting data on players, even at that level. Mind-boggling.

My local side play in the Southern League South and they video both their games and the games of their next opponents. There are some amusing stories about the lengths clubs go to, to make the filming as difficult as possible. The league rules say they have to allow it but not how & where.