Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious

[lisvaneblue]

The facts are that:

1. The first five books of the Bible and which represent the Torah were supposedly written by Moses.
2. There is no evidence that Moses existed
3. There is no evidence that if he existed that he spoke to 'God'
4. There is no evidence of such dialogue being recorded.

The whole concept of Abrahamist religions are based on the supposed works of one mythical person and there is nothing resembling an audit trail of any description. However, catch people when they are young, indoctrinate them and they swallow it whole. And most believers have little idea how so-called Holy Books have been compiled, sifted, edited and changed through the centuries. And that's precisely why religions are subject to endless and deep schisms even under the Abrahamist umbrella.

Golfer Blue's comments related to the book of John, in the New Testament. Your reply relates to Moses and I do not see the connection other than an implication that the Torah may be false so the rest of the bible is the same.

Thomas had the same problem as you 2000 years ago.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Golfer Blue's comments related to the book of John, in the New Testament. Your reply relates to Moses and I do not see the connection other than an implication that the Torah may be false so the rest of the bible is the same.

Thomas had the same problem as you 2000 years ago.

I had asked a question about Moses several times in this thread and it went unanswered. As Moses is one of the most important pillars of the story in Abrahamist religions it is perfectly logical to seriously analyse things assigned to him and which adherents believe in. It seems to be the case of a possibly mythical person supposedly carrying God's word to the masses so I think the subject deserves more respect than referring to another possibly mythical person mentioned in the same tome.

[Gofer Blue]

Golfer Blue's comments related to the book of John, in the New Testament. Your reply relates to Moses and I do not see the connection other than an implication that the Torah may be false so the rest of the bible is the same.

Thomas had the same problem as you 2000 years ago.

There is no point in any further discussion with those who believe (note: I use the word believe with a touch of irony here) that the Bible is a complete book of fiction because they cannot/will not accept it as a reference source. My faith is based on Jesus not on Moses and there is evidence other than that in the Bible that he existed. The standard response to that is ok, there may have been an historical Jesus but he was just a bloke, he didn't say most, if not all, the things he is supposed to have said, did not perform any miracles and certainly did not rise from the dead. Oh, and that I must have been brain washed as a child.

In reality by my late teens I had rejected Christianity because I believed science had all the answers (I studied the three sciences at A level and then a science degree). I became a Christian about 20 years later when I guess I finally realised that science does not have all the answers after all!

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

There is no point in any further discussion with those who believe (note: I use the word believe with a touch of irony here) that the Bible is a complete book of fiction because they cannot/will not accept it as a reference source. My faith is based on Jesus not on Moses and there is evidence other than that in the Bible that he existed. The standard response to that is ok, there may have been an historical Jesus but he was just a bloke, he didn't say most, if not all, the things he is supposed to have said, did not perform any miracles and certainly did not rise from the dead. Oh, and that I must have been brain washed as a child.

In reality by my late teens I had rejected Christianity because I believed science had all the answers (I studied the three sciences at A level and then a science degree). I became a Christian about 20 years later when I guess I finally realised that science does not have all the answers after all!

Perhaps science doesn't have all the answers but it might, given time, and if it doesn't find them that might be down to our limitations as a species.

Do you think Jesus rose from the dead? Do you believe the miracles are true? To be honest, this is the stuff that confounds me. I can understand the notion of God because it's an answer to the big questions but the Jesus story seems (to me) to be marketing for said notion.

In an earlier post you asked why would John (of gospel fame) fictionalise anything - people like fiction and fancy narratives, don't they? Put a bit of water walking and defeating death in and you've got yourself a best seller.

[Baloo]

Finally even if you are convinced that the whole thing is a complete cock and bull story, what is so wrong with the underlying sentiments of Jesus as recorded in the books of John and James, like love one another as I have loved you, love your neighbour as yourself, faith without works is dead etc? No-one can argue surely that these traits are desperately needed in the world today?

Yes, but many of these ideas were imported from the classical ethical tradition preceding Christianity. So it’s possible to try and live a good life following them without any real need to also include the supernatural.

[UNDERHILL1927]

Religion summed up for me.... Tyson Fury, God will give me the victory, Deontay Wilder, God will give me the victory......... Fury wins, God gave me the victory, Wilder loses, God was teaching me a lesson....... God loves boxing, doesn't seem to care for children with cancer.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

There is no point in any further discussion with those who believe (note: I use the word believe with a touch of irony here) that the Bible is a complete book of fiction because they cannot/will not accept it as a reference source. My faith is based on Jesus not on Moses and there is evidence other than that in the Bible that he existed. The standard response to that is ok, there may have been an historical Jesus but he was just a bloke, he didn't say most, if not all, the things he is supposed to have said, did not perform any miracles and certainly did not rise from the dead. Oh, and that I must have been brain washed as a child.

In reality by my late teens I had rejected Christianity because I believed science had all the answers (I studied the three sciences at A level and then a science degree). I became a Christian about 20 years later when I guess I finally after all!

Regarding your last sentence: science means knowledge. No-one in their right mind thinks that we yet have perfect knowledge of all things. Our knowledge is built on trial and error along with evidence. On the other hand, ancient religions that have little or no evidence may explain the creation of the universe whereas people at the time didn't understand electricity, microbes or a million other things that we have subsequently learned about.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I had asked a question about Moses several times in this thread and it went unanswered. As Moses is one of the most important pillars of the story in Abrahamist religions it is perfectly logical to seriously analyse things assigned to him and which adherents believe in. It seems to be the case of a possibly mythical person supposedly carrying God's word to the masses so I think the subject deserves more respect than referring to another possibly mythical person mentioned in the same tome.

Looks like no-one is going to provide any evidence of God's words passed onto Moses, including the book of Genesis and the talking snake.
Surely, the veracity of what are meant to be God's words represents the basis of all that followed in various Abrahamist holy books.

[truthpaste]

Perhaps science doesn't have all the answers but it might, given time, and if it doesn't find them that might be down to our limitations as a species.

Do you think Jesus rose from the dead? Do you believe the miracles are true? To be honest, this is the stuff that confounds me. I can understand the notion of God because it's an answer to the big questions but the Jesus story seems (to me) to be marketing for said notion.

In an earlier post you asked why would John (of gospel fame) fictionalise anything - people like fiction and fancy narratives, don't they? Put a bit of water walking and defeating death in and you've got yourself a best seller.

Have you seriously looked into the evidence OUTSIDE the Bible re the bodily Resurrection of Christ?

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

Have you seriously looked into the evidence OUTSIDE the Bible re the bodily Resurrection of Christ?

Only my (admittedly layman's) understanding of biology. Perhaps he was unconscious/presumed dead after his crucifixion, and spluttered into life a couple of days later before succumbing to his injuries/ascending to heaven, but then he wouldn't be dead and therefore not rising from the dead, and that's not as enticing a tale.

I had a google though and have bookmarked a couple of articles to look at later but even in a cursory search one sees there are a number of theories and doubts about the resurrection story alone. I suspect it would just come down to wanting to believe, wanting a faith, and that's fine if that's what people are looking for for themselves, but all that does is return to my question of why seek a faith in the first place.

[Gofer Blue]

Only my (admittedly layman's) understanding of biology. Perhaps he was unconscious/presumed dead after his crucifixion, and spluttered into life a couple of days later before succumbing to his injuries/ascending to heaven, but then he wouldn't be dead and therefore not rising from the dead, and that's not as enticing a tale.

I had a google though and have bookmarked a couple of articles to look at later but even in a cursory search one sees there are a number of theories and doubts about the resurrection story alone. I suspect it would just come down to wanting to believe, wanting a faith, and that's fine if that's what people are looking for for themselves, but all that does is return to my question of why seek a faith in the first place.

Have a read of "Who moved the stone" by Frank Morrison. IIRC he covers the "swoon" theory pretty well, as well as other similar theories like Jesus had an identical twin brother who was happily crucified in his place.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

In over 5 decades of having an interest in matters of fauth, I can only recall members of one group taking such violent and deadly actions. Unfortunately their understanding of their own prophecies means that many of them believe that they can personally accelerate the end-time events by bringing about such world instability.
In contrast those who read and understand Biblical Prophecy know that God is alone in control of all such future events and their timing on the world stage.

Well if god is in control of future events then he's either very mean or forgets

Only someone very mean would allow hitler to try and slaughter half of Europe

Either he's mean or he can't control future events 🤷

[gabbsthenewt]

Well if god is in control of future events then he's either very mean or forgets

Only someone very mean would allow hitler to try and slaughter half of Europe

Either he's mean or he can't control future events 🤷

Which one are we talking about tho? Allah or Joe Pesci?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Looks like no-one is going to provide any evidence of God's words passed onto Moses, including the book of Genesis and the talking snake.
Surely, the veracity of what are meant to be God's words represents the basis of all that followed in various Abrahamist holy books.

Still no takers on the Moses front.....

[splott parker]

Still no takers on the Moses front.....

Crikey.......

[truthpaste]

Only my (admittedly layman's) understanding of biology. Perhaps he was unconscious/presumed dead after his crucifixion, and spluttered into life a couple of days later before succumbing to his injuries/ascending to heaven, but then he wouldn't be dead and therefore not rising from the dead, and that's not as enticing a tale.

I had a google though and have bookmarked a couple of articles to look at later but even in a cursory search one sees there are a number of theories and doubts about the resurrection story alone. I suspect it would just come down to wanting to believe, wanting a faith, and that's fine if that's what people are looking for for themselves, but all that does is return to my question of why seek a faith in the first place.

But people like Strobel who took 24 months to look at it properly DIDN'T want his own wife to be right, that was the last thing he wanted!

People (like many here) who are hoping it isn't true only stay that way because they rest on assumptions that lean the way they want them to. Yet the same people would NEVER assume they'd packed their passport on their first holiday after 3 years in the UK, so why make assumptions on this?

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

But people like Strobel who took 24 months to look at it properly DIDN'T want his own wife to be right, that was the last thing he wanted!

People (like many here) who are hoping it isn't true only stay that way because they rest on assumptions that lean the way they want them to. Yet the same people would NEVER assume they'd packed their passport on their first holiday after 3 years in the UK, so why make assumptions on this?

Atheists don't (or shouldn't) hope theism isn't true, it just doesn't make any sense to us. You seem to assume because it doesn't, this is because of bias and stubbornness and we're sticking to our beliefs, but there's no leap of faith - there doesn't have to be.

I'm not sure I'll watch the movie, thanks, but I'll bookmark it and try and have a gander when I can. Strobel appears to be a convert, though, and just wants to tell people how he converted.

[robjohn44]

The Survey is wrong we have created the new secular religions of Woke and intersectionality which is destroying the usa and now us people just love a cause to hate on others.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The Survey is wrong we have created the new secular religions of Woke and intersectionality which is destroying the usa and now us people just love a cause to hate on others.

I think ignorant religious people are the worst haters of them all

[delmbox]

The Survey is wrong we have created the new secular religions of Woke and intersectionality which is destroying the usa and now us people just love a cause to hate on others.

Don't forget the religion of people talking shite on the internet which you're clearly a devout follower of

[Croesy Blue]

The Survey is wrong we have created the new secular religions of Woke and intersectionality which is destroying the usa and now us people just love a cause to hate on others.

Touch grass you ****ing dork

[Rjk]

Have a read of "Who moved the stone" by Frank Morrison. IIRC he covers the "swoon" theory pretty well, as well as other similar theories like Jesus had an identical twin brother who was happily crucified in his place.

Or how about the theory that Jesus was a real man from the middle east, who was a reformer fighting against corruption in the theocracy he was living in, until they had him killed. His popularity remained and his story was embellished, so that by 100 years after his death all the magic parts were added to the story, like him rising from the dead, curing the sick etc. to perpetuate the following by people who stood to benefit from it.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Or how about the theory that Jesus was a real man from the middle east, who was a reformer fighting against corruption in the theocracy he was living in, until they had him killed. His popularity remained and his story was embellished, so that by 100 years after his death all the magic parts were added to the story, like him rising from the dead, curing the sick etc. to perpetuate the following by people who stood to benefit from it.

I will go with that version

[jon1959]

Or how about the theory that Jesus was a real man from the middle east, who was a reformer fighting against corruption in the theocracy he was living in, until they had him killed. His popularity remained and his story was embellished, so that by 100 years after his death all the magic parts were added to the story, like him rising from the dead, curing the sick etc. to perpetuate the following by people who stood to benefit from it.

Sounds about right.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Or how about the theory that Jesus was a real man from the middle east, who was a reformer fighting against corruption in the theocracy he was living in, until they had him killed. His popularity remained and his story was embellished, so that by 100 years after his death all the magic parts were added to the story, like him rising from the dead, curing the sick etc. to perpetuate the following by people who stood to benefit from it.

The Jews, Christians and Muslims perceive his role as rather different though, don't they? Son of God or not son of God? One component of The Holy Trinity and with God and Jesus effectively being the same entity or not? Tis nothing more than very interesting folklore. Many Abrahamist stories were lifted from previous religions and, in turn, the Christians, Jews, Mormons et al added their own layers at later stages. Some believers consider the Garden of Eden story as being absolutely true and others consider it to be allegorical. Almost every believer adheres to the religion they are exposed to as a child regardless of when and where they were born.
There's no evidence that could convince a person to believe in these stories and it's all about indoctrination and gullibility.
And it's hugely ironic that the Almighty chose to make his presence on Earth two thousand years ago and gave recent centuries a miss when world wars were taking place and millions of his believers were being sent to the gas chambers. He was obviously content with his representatives turning water into wine (Jesus), creating a hillock from whence a speech could be made (St David) and walking in the air, (Ja'far ibn Abi Talib), appearance of clothing when required (Zacharius) etc.
It's no coincidence that these relgions were formed at a time when the average person was illiterate and had no or little understanding of science as we know it today. Many natural features and events can be explained today and intelligent people know that we don't know it all. To think that invented stories from thousands of years ago (and which were often versions of previous ones) is quite amusing. Religion is fascinating mythology, that's all.