Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious

[truthpaste]

no, that isn't what I'm saying at all

So which prophecy concerning Christ (in the first century) are you claiming was written AFTER the life of Christ on earth?

[Rjk]

So which prophecy concerning Christ (in the first century) are you claiming was written AFTER the life of Christ on earth?

no. I'm. saying the old testament prophecies were written when they were written. Jesus was born and died and then some time after his death some of his followers changed some of the details of his life to match the prophecies to bring more followers to their cause.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Still no answer aboutthe talking snake......

[Tuerto]

I find it odd that many people who claim to be "liberal" just love having a pop at religion. Liberalism is about mutual acceptance of other people's point of view, however offensive or contrarian that opinion proves to be. I find it sad that non-believers feel the need to berate believers. What difference does it make to your life? Why get hot under the collar about someone else’s choices? You wouldn’t complain about them choosing to follow a gay life. So why berate them for a religious life? I would add the following perspectives to the debate

Faith is comforting. Truth and rationalism is not
I think what irks the people most about other people following religion is that they are happy. Even if in a blissfully ignorant way, they are happy. And that irks the complainant. Perhaps because the irrationality of an unevidenced and unrobust faith is comforting. People of low income in poor countries. The lowly educated. They can be happy. They have faith and so they just believe, and it gives them comfort and hope. For the rationalist / aetheist, it can lead to unhappiness. For if not believing leads to a lack of faith, science leads you to philosophical questions such as "So what is it all for?" What is your purpose in life? Why do you work? All these questions become difficult and can lead to an unsatisfactory conclusion, no conclusion and even depression. My gran is 89 and not had much in life. But she is happy, grateful and accepts “god’s way”. There is a happiness premium to take there.

Religion as an educational tool
These days, schools and universities provide education. Over a hundred and fifty years ago hardly anyone were educated. Churches provided the unscientific allegories that gave values, principles and lessons on life, regardless of their technical accuracy. Sometimes a general point with false detail is better than absolute precision of data with an immemorable narrative. People remember stories. Very few quote accurate data. Stories are a better way to tell life’s lessons. Can anyone disagree that the ten commandments are a great way to live? Does anyone think that the story of Cane and Abel’s gruesome ending has no value? These were as memorable to me on life’s lessons as were Aesop’s Fables and Mabinogion in Welsh. The role may have faded, but given the criminality and crookedness in the world, religion still fills a useful role for many people.

Religion's influence fading with professionalism and increased secondary / tertiary education
As people become more primary, secondary and tertiary educated they are more capable of seeking data, forming opinions and analysing issues. That said, there are still a lot of uneducated people in the world who do not receive this. In addition, don’t kid yourself that educated people are wiser. Intelligence should never be confused with good decision making (wisdom). Wisdom comes from a knowledge of history, the ability to deal with multiple mental models, reading between the lines, and a sound final judgement. I have seen PHD mathematicians and physicists think they are so clever that they can advise investment banks make a fortune. They just lacked the wisdom and a few were responsible for pulling down banks in the Great Financial Crisis. Intelligence? Yes. Wisdom? No. I have seen people with Masters in Accounting go bankrupt. Intelligence? Yes. Wisdom? No. The bible does contain a lot of wisdom on life’s mistakes. And for all the scientists and well educated sense of superiority, I still see them making mistakes that the bible would otherwise advise. Committing adultery, lying, cheating, stealing, even murder. Not quite as superior as they think.

7 day a week commercialism / globalism
The demand’s from multinationals to open up business days from 5 to 7 days a week doesn’t help. It has taken away leisure time that people used to use to go to Church. If not purely religious, it was a social activity. Now replaced with people doing “retail therapy” or staring at the Playstation wondering which of their mates they can shoot with a Glock next, once they “level up”.


So am I religious? No. My grandparents and great-grandparents were a mixture of Calvinists, Methodists, Wesleyans and Church of Wales. I was Church of Wales as a child and early teens, and then I let go. What I do see is that a lot of people find comfort in it, perhaps in poverty or loss of a relative. Science would lead them to be miserable, as it leads them to the conclusion that they are here for a short while, to earn money, then tap out. A god of some sort gives them faith. A belief. And that can give a lot of comfort and happiness. I would probably describe myself as agnostic but open-minded on it. Just because I am highly educated, I don’t feel it gives me a moral high ground. Religion has its uses. It makes people happy. It is also a source of community.

So who am I to argue and denigrate just because I am inclined for the moment not to believe? I am a true liberal at heart. Live and let live. It makes them happy, leave them be - whatever the religion.

Nothing wrong with religious debate, but as a non believer I would say that some of the posts in this thread are borderline bullying from those who are very eager to disprove religious thought and faith. I think that they're shouting at the wrong people, the problem should be with the establishment, the empire so to speak. It's a bit like the Brexit debate, where those who voted out were castigated by many who were quite obviously better educated as being thick and racist. Maybe people need to play the ball a bit more and not just the man.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Nothing wrong with religious debate, but as a non believer I would say that some of the posts in this thread are borderline bullying from those who are very eager to disprove religious thought and faith. I think that they're shouting at the wrong people, the problem should be with the establishment, the empire so to speak. It's a bit like the Brexit debate, where those who voted out were castigated by many who were quite obviously better educated as being thick and racist. Maybe people need to play the ball a bit more and not just the man.

If someone comes on this message board and states something as being absolute truth it's fair game to challenge such an assertion, whatever the subject matter. I don't think anyone is 'eager to disprove religious thought and faith' as both obviously exist.

[Rjk]

Still no answer aboutthe talking snake......

well snakes don't have vocal chords or a diaphragm, nor the geometry of the mouth to be able to form the sounds of speech, they lack the mental capacity for speech or even complex thought and even if they could speak it presumably would be in a snake language, not a human one.

But the bible definitely says it was a talking snake, so the jury's out on that one I guess.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

well snakes don't have vocal chords or a diaphragm, nor the geometry of the mouth to be able to form the sounds of speech, they lack the mental capacity for speech or even complex thought and even if they could speak it presumably would be in a snake language, not a human one.

But the bible definitely says it was a talking snake, so the jury's out on that one I guess.

You are not the sort who believes in miracles then?

[Rjk]

You are not the sort who believes in miracles then?

Well I've just bought a lottery ticked for Friday, but as improbable as winning that will be I still think there is more chance of that happening than an actual snake talking with a person.

[jon1959]

Well I've just bought a lottery ticked for Friday, but as improbable as winning that will be I still think there is more chance of that happening than an actual snake talking with a person.

Still 'bullying' Truthpaste I see.

[Tuerto]

Still 'bullying' Truthpaste I see.

That's probably aimed at me. Truthpaste is a fanatic (if he isn't a wind up) people like him need countering. Other people who have posted on this thread and who tried what their faith means to them in a fair minded manner should be respected in my opinion, not told that what they think is bollocks. There's enough of that in the world and it doesn't make for a better place.

[UNDERHILL1927]

Still no answer aboutthe talking snake......

God works in mysterious ways, that's usually the reasoning

[truthpaste]

Still 'bullying' Truthpaste I see.

This board is almost the most well mannered I've encountered since the 1990's. Some like Yahoo Chat have been taken down because of the levels of abuse etc

As for the snake, what we have here is someone that can't see above the glass ceiling of science, which can vary from brilliant to completely barking up the wrong tree. If you doubt that then dig out some science books from your formative years and see how many corrections/ editions have been printed since.
So Satan used a snake and God used a donkey to pass on a message on one occasion, so what?....if life IS more than flesh and blood, and people can be possessed, what is the problem?

Look at City from the 60's to the 20's and you'll find your fair share of donkeys, mind you I'm not sure if they could also speak?

[jon1959]

That's probably aimed at me. Truthpaste is a fanatic (if he isn't a wind up) people like him need countering. Other people who have posted on this thread and who tried what their faith means to them in a fair minded manner should be respected in my opinion, not told that what they think is bollocks. There's enough of that in the world and it doesn't make for a better place.

Sorry - I couldn't resist.

Although I think most of the thread has been fairly engaged and respectful - if not a meeting of any minds.

Truthpaste is probably not a wind up, but he is an extremist. That came out more in the Israel-Palestine thread than this one. But anyone who believes in the literal truth of the Old Testament, magic and supernatural events, and some cloud based entity giving 'the chosen people' the title deeds to a swathe of the Middle East over 3000 years ago (and uses that to justify ethnic cleansing and state persecution) should certainly be challenged, and not just about the talking snake!

[Tuerto]

Sorry - I couldn't resist.

Although I think most of the thread has been fairly engaged and respectful - if not a meeting of any minds.

Truthpaste is probably not a wind up, but he is an extremist. That came out more in the Israel-Palestine thread than this one. But anyone who believes in the literal truth of the Old Testament, magic and supernatural events, and some cloud based entity giving 'the chosen people' the title deeds to a swathe of the Middle East over 3000 years ago, and uses that to justify ethnic cleansing and state persecution should certainly be challenged, and not just about the talking snake!

Absolutely Most people with faith are moderate, they use it as and when in my experience. It's great to talk about these constant attempts at belittling (as i see it) towards people with faith is bullying in my opinion. I'm no believer, but both sides of my family have faith, as does my wife, and my mother, who is an international socialist-work that one out

[splott parker]

Still no answer aboutthe talking snake......

Kaa, obviously. Trust in me

[Taunton Blue Genie]

This board is almost the most well mannered I've encountered since the 1990's. Some like Yahoo Chat have been taken down because of the levels of abuse etc

As for the snake, what we have here is someone that can't see above the glass ceiling of science, which can vary from brilliant to completely barking up the wrong tree. If you doubt that then dig out some science books from your formative years and see how many corrections/ editions have been printed since.
So Satan used a snake and God used a donkey to pass on a message on one occasion, so what?....if life IS more than flesh and blood, and people can be possessed, what is the problem?

Look at City from the 60's to the 20's and you'll find your fair share of donkeys, mind you I'm not sure if they could also speak?

The glass ceiling of science???? How is that description consistent with the fact that science books are indeed re-written and modified once we learn more about subject matter with our improving understanding of science (i.e. increased knowledge)? A ceiling that rises perhaps . All the greatest scientific minds work on that basis. Richard Feynman used the anaology of only being able to see part of a chess board and observing only certain pieces - and as the game goes on we see not only pieces that we hadn't seen previously but we also see that some pieces move in ways that were previously not evident. Knowledge is never perfect but science has enabled people to have heart transplants, to send spacecraft into the far reaches of the universe and for us to be protected against viruses and disease. There is no shame in intelligent people knowing that they don't know everything.

However, I will ask you yet again: do you believe that the talking snake existed or is it symbolic/a parable of sorts/allegorical?
Why are you so reticent to answer that very specific question?

[truthpaste]

The glass ceiling of science???? How is that description consistent with the fact that science books are indeed re-written and modified once we learn more about subject matter with our improving understanding of science (i.e. increased knowledge)? A ceiling that rises perhaps . All the greatest scientific minds work on that basis. Richard Feynman used the anaology of only being able to see part of a chess board and observing only certain pieces - and as the game goes on we see not only pieces that we hadn't seen previously but we also see that some pieces move in ways that were previously not evident. Knowledge is never perfect but science has enabled people to have heart transplants, to send spacecraft into the far reaches of the universe and for us to be protected against viruses and disease. There is no shame in intelligent people knowing that they don't know everything.

However, I will ask you yet again: do you believe that the talking snake existed or is it symbolic/a parable of sorts/allegorical?
Why are you so reticent to answer that very specific question?

I did answer the question re creatures and voices, and I mentioned (obviously not clearly enough - apologies) that spiritual possession could make any object (like a radio or tv) or any creature speak and do many other things?
Have you never heard of people messing with ouija boards and having objects flying across the room, hearing voices or sudden chills etc etc.....because I have on many occasions.

As for science, sure the ceiling rises, the problem is mankinds arrogance, thinking that he is almost at the point of total knowledge. Remember that in 1969 when man used limited knowledge and technology to get to the moon, it is now said that the computing power available to them was only at the level of a pocket calculator!
And that was only 52 years ago. So consider what we would be using at the high end of NASA and innovation in another 50 years?? Man is way off the levels of knowledge and ability of Almighty God, even if he does own an i-Phone 13 and Sky Glass.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I did answer the question re creatures and voices, and I mentioned (obviously not clearly enough - apologies) that spiritual possession could make any object (like a radio or tv) or any creature speak and do many other things?
Have you never heard of people messing with ouija boards and having objects flying across the room, hearing voices or sudden chills etc etc.....because I have on many occasions.

As for science, sure the ceiling rises, the problem is mankinds arrogance, thinking that he is almost at the point of total knowledge. Remember that in 1969 when man used limited knowledge and technology to get to the moon, it is now said that the computing power available to them was only at the level of a pocket calculator!
And that was only 52 years ago. So consider what we would be using at the high end of NASA and innovation in another 50 years?? Man is way off the levels of knowledge and ability of Almighty God, even if he does own an i-Phone 13 and Sky Glass.

People who hear voices are generally unwell with psychosis and need medical treatment

People who are not and tell others they have seen ghosts etc are con artists

Some nun who says she saw a statue of christ shedding real tears is probably both mentally unwell and a con artist

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I did answer the question re creatures and voices, and I mentioned (obviously not clearly enough - apologies) that spiritual possession could make any object (like a radio or tv) or any creature speak and do many other things?
Have you never heard of people messing with ouija boards and having objects flying across the room, hearing voices or sudden chills etc etc.....because I have on many occasions.

As for science, sure the ceiling rises, the problem is mankinds arrogance, thinking that he is almost at the point of total knowledge. Remember that in 1969 when man used limited knowledge and technology to get to the moon, it is now said that the computing power available to them was only at the level of a pocket calculator!
And that was only 52 years ago. So consider what we would be using at the high end of NASA and innovation in another 50 years?? Man is way off the levels of knowledge and ability of Almighty God, even if he does own an i-Phone 13 and Sky Glass.

Sorry ......you think spiritual possession happens AND this can lead to a TV or radio speak and make things fly around a room ?

That's completely absurd

The Legend Of Hell House , which is about demonic possession, is a very scary film when you watch it as a kid but it's cobblers

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I did answer the question re creatures and voices, and I mentioned (obviously not clearly enough - apologies) that spiritual possession could make any object (like a radio or tv) or any creature speak and do many other things?
Have you never heard of people messing with ouija boards and having objects flying across the room, hearing voices or sudden chills etc etc.....because I have on many occasions.

As for science, sure the ceiling rises, the problem is mankinds arrogance, thinking that he is almost at the point of total knowledge. Remember that in 1969 when man used limited knowledge and technology to get to the moon, it is now said that the computing power available to them was only at the level of a pocket calculator!
And that was only 52 years ago. So consider what we would be using at the high end of NASA and innovation in another 50 years?? Man is way off the levels of knowledge and ability of Almighty God, even if he does own an i-Phone 13 and Sky Glass.

I don't know why you keep banging on about us understanding more about science as time passes. I have already agreed that it is the case. No intelligent person claims that we are anywhere near having total knowledge.

On the other hand, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you are 100% convinced that a talking snake appeared in the Garden of Eden.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I don't know why you keep banging on about us understanding more about science as time passes. I have already agreed that it is the case. No intelligent person claims that we are anywhere near having total knowledge.

On the other hand, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you are 100% convinced that a talking snake appeared in the Garden of Eden.

He is

It says so in The Bible

So that's it

[lisvaneblue]

I don't know why you keep banging on about us understanding more about science as time passes. I have already agreed that it is the case. No intelligent person claims that we are anywhere near having total knowledge.

On the other hand, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you are 100% convinced that a talking snake appeared in the Garden of Eden.

If nothing else you are tenacious.
Let's go back to Genesis 3 and The Fall. The original Hebrew text says Eve was tempted by 'nachash'..a serpent. English editions of the bible called this a snake, but in literal translation it is a serpent.
A serpent, as you know, can be a sly, treacherous person who exploits a position of trust in order to betray it....Satan

However, it may be that a 'snake' did speak and deceive Eve, and you nor I do not understand how because our 'science' has yet to work it out. Don't dismiss it because you don't understand it.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

If nothing else you are tenacious.
Let's go back to Genesis 3 and The Fall. The original Hebrew text says Eve was tempted by 'nachash'..a serpent. English editions of the bible called this a snake, but in literal translation it is a serpent.
A serpent, as you know, can be a sly, treacherous person who exploits a position of trust in order to betray it....Satan

However, it may be that a 'snake' did speak and deceive Eve, and you nor I do not understand how because our 'science' has yet to work it out. Don't dismiss it because you don't understand it.

Why hasn't there been any incidents of snakes talking to people since this incredible event?

Or was it a one off 🤔 ?

[lisvaneblue]

Why hasn't there been any incidents of snakes talking to people since this incredible event?

Or was it a one off �� ?

Have you never had a 'sly, treacherous person' try to exploit you?

I certainly have.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Have you never had a 'sly, treacherous person' try to exploit you?

I certainly have.

Of course . And all of us , being human can be sly too.

But people of faith tell us that the Bible is God's word and God says that there was a talking snake ?

So are you saying there was no snake ?

If that's the case , what else in the Bible can be challenged ?