The Miners Strike

[splott parker]

My friend, what is happening right at this moment is that the self-employed artisans are calling the shots. The economic balance has shifted again. I recently asked for four quotes for a boiler and gas fire replacement - three from s/e individuals. Two didn't bother to come despite being chased (including one guy who had serviced our central heating for years). The other said he couldn't quote as he could only do the work in the new year and didn't know what the prices would be. Fair enough - I get this, but what I see is an empowered work force who think they can get away with poor service.

And, if you’d have read my initial post, is the crux of the matter, I said that, ironically, Thatcher’s plans have come back and bit them on the arse. Her plans, which employers at the time followed, was boom & bust. They made hay at the time with their cost cutting, no investment in training youngsters in bona fide long term apprenticeships, six month crash courses were created = hopeless, barely qualified operatives. Now as a result tradesmen like me, and yes, I will blow my own trumpet, are thin on the ground and people like you who require our quality services are paying ridiculous money. Or you pay for duff service and dig a bigger hole for yourself. It’s all down to that woman’s policies. Now that Brexit has and will deprive the UK of quality tradespeople from countries who realised that properly training youngsters was the proper way to continue the production line of skill, we fear for the construction trade in this country once we're dead & gone. Long term that cow’s policies has ruined the country, ok I’m doing ok, sometimes putting in ridiculous prices and still winning the contracts and in mitigation I keep telling myself this was why I did 4 years learning my trade. That woman and her government sowed the seeds of this, so short term vision, ridiculous. Anyway, I’m coming up 67 and I’m going to continue to milk it and why not, that c*nt Thatcher would no doubt be proud of me. P.S. I do reduced rates for proper Socialists, Blairites can piss off.

[Jordi Culé]

And, if you’d have read my initial post, is the crux of the matter, I said that, ironically, Thatcher’s plans have come back and bit them on the arse. Her plans, which employers at the time followed, was boom & bust. They made hay at the time with their cost cutting, no investment in training youngsters in bona fide long term apprenticeships, six month crash courses were created = hopeless, barely qualified operatives. Now as a result tradesmen like me, and yes, I will blow my own trumpet, are thin on the ground and people like you who require our quality services are paying ridiculous money. Or you pay for duff service and dig a bigger hole for yourself. It’s all down to that woman’s policies. Now that Brexit has and will deprive the UK of quality tradespeople from countries who realised that properly training youngsters was the proper way to continue the production line of skill, we fear for the construction trade in this country once we're dead & gone. Long term that cow’s policies has ruined the country, ok I’m doing ok, sometimes putting in ridiculous prices and still winning the contracts and in mitigation I keep telling myself this was why I did 4 years learning my trade. That woman and her government sowed the seeds of this, so short term vision, ridiculous. Anyway, I’m coming up 67 and I’m going to continue to milk it and why not, that c*nt Thatcher would no doubt be proud of me. P.S. I do reduced rates for proper Socialists, Blairites can piss off.

*applauds*

[dembethewarrior]

If the old gas board did it you wouldn't have this hassle

That's competition for you

Suck it up

How do you know?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

How do you know?

Never had any problems in the old days

You are just a nipper

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I'd have thought you'd have added the Gas Board to your list of bitterly hated organisations.
'Their' fitters are self-employed and the services of all were recently dispensed with and they were offered altered contracts which were contentious.
Anyway, I used Paul Maddocks' Heatforce for the work. They were the cheapest and able to do the work before Xmas.
That's competition for you - and a lesson in economics.

The cheapest isn't always the best

I hope it doesn't blow up in your face , if you will pardon the expression

Clear the area !

[dembethewarrior]

Never had any problems in the old days

You are just a nipper

Ah so it would have just carried on working brilliantly forever, the end.

You live in your head mate.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Ah so it would have just carried on working brilliantly forever, the end.

You live in your head mate.

Thatcher Boy

[dembethewarrior]

Thatcher Boy

Just a nipper a post ago.

If it dont fit the fairytale scenario in your head...

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Just a nipper a post ago.

If it dont fit the fairytale scenario in your head...

There are youngsters around today who think Thatcher was great

There are young men around today who love Adolf Hitler

You can never tell

[dembethewarrior]

There are youngsters around today who think Thatcher was great

There are young men around today who love Adolf Hitler

You can never tell

There are Americans that are now making out the taliban etc as hero's, domestic extremists using the same playbook to wreak havoc in the US (or attempt it)


Worlds gone mad.

No everyone that doesn't agree with you is the extreme end of what you hate. I've only ever voted Labour, don't really want to vote as they're all a pile of shit, but my grandad used to hate tories and so does my old man who is a bit like you my old girl used to hate them as well but recently voted tory because of how utter shite Labour are, I couldn't do that so I am now in the no vote camp..suppose I can't whinge if I don't vote or so people say.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

There are Americans that are now making out the taliban etc as hero's, domestic extremists using the same playbook to wreak havoc in the US (or attempt it)


Worlds gone mad.

No everyone that doesn't agree with you is the extreme end of what you hate. I've only ever voted Labour, don't really want to vote as they're all a pile of shit, but my grandad used to hate tories and so does my old man who is a bit like you my old girl used to hate them as well but recently voted tory because of how utter shite Labour are, I couldn't do that so I am now in the no vote camp..suppose I can't whinge if I don't vote or so people say.

Well the current Labour Party are terrible

I think people nowadays need an alternative to the conservatives , look at labourcand think bollocks to that

I don't think the labour party is relevant any more

I know lots of people who don't vote , I can't force them to . I wish everyone supported Cardiff City .

[JamesWales]

There are youngsters around today who think Thatcher was great

There are young men around today who love Adolf Hitler

You can never tell

What a ridiculous thing to post, especially at 8.25 on a Monday morning!

Mad as a shoebox full of frogs!

[splott parker]

What a ridiculous thing to post, especially at 8.25 on a Monday morning!

Mad as a shoebox full of frogs!

Correct, how could anybody think Thatcher was great.

[JamesWales]

Correct, how could anybody think Thatcher was great.

touche..

[Once U shop, U can't stop]

touche..

't' is very close to 'd' on the keyboard.
It's an easy mistake to make.....

[life on mars]

There are youngsters around today who think Thatcher was great

There are young men around today who love Adolf Hitler

You can never tell

Why exclude young women from Hitler love ?? , that's quite a sexist stance if you don't mind me saying .

There also maybe older people who think Maggie was great ,as they voted for her , are they likely to be Nazis as I feel worried now ??

What about that Blair fella , or Corbyn , which group are attracted to them .

[pomeroy]

The Miners Strike was doomed to failure because it was called by an egotistical maniac leader of a Union without a balloted mandate to bring down a democratically elected government on the pretence of preserving jobs and communities. On a grander scale the Spanish Civil War echoed this and ended up with 40 years of Franco’s dictatorship. I rest my case.

[jon1959]

The Miners Strike was doomed to failure because it was called by an egotistical maniac leader of a Union without a balloted mandate to bring down a democratically elected government on the pretence of preserving jobs and communities. On a grander scale the Spanish Civil War echoed this and ended up with 40 years of Franco’s dictatorship. I rest my case.

Que?

I understand the first part of your post (although I don't agree with you) but what comparison are you trying to make with the Spanish Civil War? Was the democratically elected Spanish government doomed to failure, because..... it wanted to bring down a democratically elected government? Wasn't Franco the 'egotistical maniac leader'? Maybe a bit of explanation before you rest your case?

[life on mars]

The Miners Strike was doomed to failure because it was called by an egotistical maniac leader of a Union without a balloted mandate to bring down a democratically elected government on the pretence of preserving jobs and communities. On a grander scale the Spanish Civil War echoed this and ended up with 40 years of Franco’s dictatorship. I rest my case.

Thank god that particular union leader was deafted he did them no favours and it shows his own personal greed , in a time when the NUM had very little funds and had plenty to say about rich Tories ,dreadful little man :


"""Former miners' leader Arthur Scargill has lost his High Court fight to have the National Union of Mineworkers (NUM) continue to pay for his London flat.

Mr Scargill was president of the NUM until July 2002 and led it during the miners' strike from 1984 to 1985.

He stepped down as president of the union but claimed his contract entitled him to a London home for life, or the life of his widow.

Chris Kitchen, NUM general secretary, said Mr Scargill had been "found out".

Mr Scargill said that the judgment was "perverse".

He added: "There can be no doubt that 30 years ago I was given an entitlement to a property by the union and that entitlement continued during my retirement, as it had done for all my predecessors including Lord Gormley and, after he died, his widow Lady Gormley." """

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I try to hang around for a few pages when complex subjects come up - as it's so interesting to read the experiences and views of others in the first place. Not to hang onto anyone's coat tails but to take on board more information than I had before the thread started. The advantage of participating in a message board is that we have the benefit of more than just our own experiences and knowledge.
Having been brought up in Cardiff and only taking in what was presented in the limited media, I have no personal experience to relate but I have always thought that the miner's strike was just as much about class war as anything else. This country has been blighted with that cancer longer than many of our European neighbours and it was evident in the workplace and in the forces at that time (and still hung around in the latter for quite some time, something I do have experience of, having been a civilain working with naval officers and visiting naval bases. (I wasn't merely a junior civil servant but by some quirk I was always afforded naval officer status on naval bases, which meany I was waited on in plush restaurant areas rather than sitting down on formica tables in the ratings' canteen where it was self-service.
I'm not of the left nor the right precisely as I have never wished to fall down on one particular side and having lived and worked abroad in Germany in the late 70's the following class characteristics that we had at the time seemed to be absent or minimal:

1. Academic qualifications v qualifications in Engineering etc (white v blue collar)
2. Private schools (seemed to be less than encouraged)
3. Bosses v worker conflicts
4. Royalty
5. Honours Lists
6. Hereditary Peers
7. Apprenticeships
8. Us v them

My personal experiences and memories may have been limited or faulty and I have no interest in taking a unilateral or myopic tack of any description. I do think the class divide was partly responsible for many ills in industry in the 70's though. I think it may have changed to a great degree but perhaps it'snow more about an income divide is now drawn a bit lower down the ladder, as it were.

Just a few thoughts and I certainly don't think I know it all!

[pomeroy]

Que?

I understand the first part of your post (although I don't agree with you) but what comparison are you trying to make with the Spanish Civil War? Was the democratically elected Spanish government doomed to failure, because..... it wanted to bring down a democratically elected government? Wasn't Franco the 'egotistical maniac leader'? Maybe a bit of explanation before you rest your case?

Scargill, megalomaniac leader without a mandate, tried unseccussfully to bring down a democratically elected government. Franco, megalomaniac leader, by force of arms and the help of Hitler brought down a democratically elected government but eventually democracy won the day and even he had to accede to the will of the people. In its simplistic terms that was my point. There are other examples, of course, but the real point was that a nobody like Scargill was never going to summon enough support, even amongst his own members, to oust the Thatcher government by means other than through the ballot box.

[JamesWales]

Scargill, megalomaniac leader without a mandate, tried unseccussfully to bring down a democratically elected government. Franco, megalomaniac leader, by force of arms and the help of Hitler brought down a democratically elected government but eventually democracy won the day and even he had to accede to the will of the people. In its simplistic terms that was my point. There are other examples, of course, but the real point was that a nobody like Scargill was never going to summon enough support, even amongst his own members, to oust the Thatcher government by means other than through the ballot box.

As usual, left and right play out it's ideological dance and as usual common sense and compromise go out the window and the normal people suffer

[jon1959]

Scargill, megalomaniac leader without a mandate, tried unseccussfully to bring down a democratically elected government. Franco, megalomaniac leader, by force of arms and the help of Hitler brought down a democratically elected government but eventually democracy won the day and even he had to accede to the will of the people. In its simplistic terms that was my point. There are other examples, of course, but the real point was that a nobody like Scargill was never going to summon enough support, even amongst his own members, to oust the Thatcher government by means other than through the ballot box.

OK. I don't agree with your description of Scargill, the NUM or the main drivers for the 1984-5 strike, although your view is shared hy a lot of people (from the editor of The Sun to Kinnock). Without the full financial and political support of the Labour Party, the TUC, and constituent TUC unions the strike was always likely to fail. It may have failed (later) even with that support.

But your analogy with the Spanish Civil War still makes no sense to me. Scargill and the NUM lost to a better prepared government backed by coal stockpiles and a militarised police operation. Franco and his fascists won against a democratically elected government and held power for 40 years. For them a triumph not a failure. The lesson from that seems to be less about megalomanic leaders and lack of mandate (or lack of a specific ballot to endorse conference policy) but that having an army, a willingness to commit atrocities, and international backers with a Condor Squadron leads to success?

[pomeroy]

OK. I don't agree with your description of Scargill, the NUM or the main drivers for the 1984-5 strike, although your view is shared hy a lot of people (from the editor of The Sun to Kinnock). Without the full financial and political support of the Labour Party, the TUC, and constituent TUC unions the strike was always likely to fail. It may have failed (later) even with that support.

But your analogy with the Spanish Civil War still makes no sense to me. Scargill and the NUM lost to a better prepared government backed by coal stockpiles and a militarised police operation. Franco and his fascists won against a democratically elected government and held power for 40 years. For them a triumph not a failure. The lesson from that seems to be less about megalomanic leaders and lack of mandate (or lack of a specific ballot to endorse conference policy) but that having an army, a willingness to commit atrocities, and international backers with a Condor Squadron leads to success?

Franco won a Pyrrhic victory and hardly a triumph. Spain under Franco was as divided as it was before. My point again is that sooner or later consensus will win through and the people will decide. Scargill never commanded support of his own troops and chose the most inauspicious time to start the battle. Moreover his generals were treated with derision by the general population. Remember Emlyn Williams speech peroration “ we will win or die in the attempt “. To the vast majority of the population and NUM members that was just a joke. Kinnock was right “ lions led by donkeys”.

[the other bob wilson]

I try to hang around for a few pages when complex subjects come up - as it's so interesting to read the experiences and views of others in the first place. Not to hang onto anyone's coat tails but to take on board more information than I had before the thread started. The advantage of participating in a message board is that we have the benefit of more than just our own experiences and knowledge.
Having been brought up in Cardiff and only taking in what was presented in the limited media, I have no personal experience to relate but I have always thought that the miner's strike was just as much about class war as anything else. This country has been blighted with that cancer longer than many of our European neighbours and it was evident in the workplace and in the forces at that time (and still hung around in the latter for quite some time, something I do have experience of, having been a civilain working with naval officers and visiting naval bases. (I wasn't merely a junior civil servant but by some quirk I was always afforded naval officer status on naval bases, which meany I was waited on in plush restaurant areas rather than sitting down on formica tables in the ratings' canteen where it was self-service.
I'm not of the left nor the right precisely as I have never wished to fall down on one particular side and having lived and worked abroad in Germany in the late 70's the following class characteristics that we had at the time seemed to be absent or minimal:

1. Academic qualifications v qualifications in Engineering etc (white v blue collar)
2. Private schools (seemed to be less than encouraged)
3. Bosses v worker conflicts
4. Royalty
5. Honours Lists
6. Hereditary Peers
7. Apprenticeships
8. Us v them

My personal experiences and memories may have been limited or faulty and I have no interest in taking a unilateral or myopic tack of any description. I do think the class divide was partly responsible for many ills in industry in the 70's though. I think it may have changed to a great degree but perhaps it'snow more about an income divide is now drawn a bit lower down the ladder, as it were.

Just a few thoughts and I certainly don't think I know it all!