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And this mornings news for the Tories on here.
Inflation hits 10-year high of 5.1% as cost of living squeeze tightens. More than double official 2% target.
Raucous Christmas party at Tory HQ leading to ex mayoral candidate and police and criminal commissioner Shaun Bailey resigning.
99 Tory’s oppose BJ’s plans in England.
State Pension age to increase to 68
But, but Jeremy Corbyn, left wing, socialism blah blah bloody blah.
I fully understand that, still doesn't take away from the fact that the tiny percentage that cheat the system annoys me, it always has, Ive worked in the houses of them, they are proud that they are doing it
Immigration doesn't overly bother me, I have friends from various places, I will have a coffee ( in a Turkish coffee shop, with real turks serving me ) with 2 polish Lads ( one used to work for me ) next week to have a christmas catch up
I didn't use my dislike of people cheating the system as my reason to vote for the Torys
So what did make you vote for the tories then if it wasn’t the reasons you gave for becoming more right leaning one post ago?
You’ll lose your mind when you hear about the rich evading tax and hiding their wealth in offshore bank accounts. Surely your anger is best served on those. Reminds me of that famous cartoon D56925B2-9A44-4873-B158-B4B007C3E117.jpg
This is much more style of debate I have to say - scrutinising the numbers and coming to conclusions. And you make a fair point. Against many 'western peers' our death rates from Covid are moderately worse. That should be acknowledged. Our vaccinations are generally quicker, and on the economy and long term education or mental and physical health impacts it's probably too soon to tell.
I wouldnt so hastily dismiss the former Warsaw pact countries mind. Although economically they may still lag, I dont think they really have any less tools at their disposal to manage this pandemic than we do. But it's a fair point to make.
Either way, when we really look into the data like this, and consider all the wider impacts, it's hard to come to such a conclusion that the UK government is a total disaster, or the UK is a disaster etc. It's way more nuanced than that and some things we've done bad, some good, most middling.
For the record - I didn't dismiss it as leftist propaganda. That makes me sound like I'm standing trial at one of Stalins purges. I called him a lefty - A light hearted term and one I think is fairly accurate.
Quite depressing to see people voting for the tories because of “benefit cheats” and for brexit because “country’s full”.
Two things that are never going to be solved by those votes.
More than two million EU citizens could face deportation from the UK after a decision by Priti Patel to make them reapply to stay in the country. What the hell have we become?
PS story from the left wing Times.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/p...tain-tdgw99z59
May I suggest that people are allowed to be concerned about what they want. Annoyance at benefit fraud is very common in working class areas as it is at very close proximity to people who are playing it fair.
It's understandable that if someone is cheating the system in Ely, then someone living a few doors down and working etc will be more annoyed by it than someone in Lisvane for whom such things are generally out of sight.
The country isn't "full" but England by itself is the most densely populated major country in Europe, and people are allowed to see over development, the loss of some community assets, house price rises etc and associate the two.
In short, concerns over benefit fraud and population density are perfectly valid concerns for people. The mistake the left has generally made is the same one you are making now. You aren't understanding peoples concerns or offering viable solutions, you are merely mocking them and telling them what to think.
You need to learn to respect the electorate more, and if they have a view different to you, to understand it, not just dismiss it as someone being 'lied to'.
They are but that doesn’t mean they are valid concerns. What you are saying is “the left” needs to address concerns about things that aren’t actual issues just because people think they are.May I suggest that people are allowed to be concerned about what they want.
What a waste of time. Shame people won’t be concerned about tax dodging, would put much more in the country’s coffers is we dealt with that rather than the tiny % of people getting an extra few quid a week.
They are valid concerns to people who are worried or annoyed about it. If you are working your arse off to provide for your family and making sacrifices and someone down the road is a benefit cheat, this will annoy you. Thats a valid concern. It may not be the country's biggest issue, but it's a valid issue for that person. It's not for you to decide what peoples concerns are. This is why we have universal suffrage, so all peoples concerns are heard.
Same as burglary may not be the biggest issue in the country, but for those who have been burgled, it is probably their number one concern and that's fair enough.
I agree with you on tax dodging, although the two aren't exclusive. They are both theft and really we don't need to seperate them out; people concerned about benefit cheats will also be concerned about tax avoidance.
Consider this. You are concerned about both benefit fraud and tax dodging.
One party says "I understand that and we will try and tackle that"
The other party says "pah, you dumbass, you should only be worried about one of those things! You are being lied to!"
Who are many people going to vote for?
Change the topic to Brexit, or cultural issues, or crime or any number of factors and it goes a long way to explaining why Labour lost the red wall and why more working class people now vote Tory than Labour. That may not continue, but for the last 5 years at least it's been about respect.
I don’t think one party is saying “you’re a dumbass” though. And I don’t think I was talking about a party winning votes.
I was just saying it’s depressing that people are using these as core reasons for how to vote when they aren’t actual issues.
The country’s full and voting for brexit when the actual issue is lack of spending and investment on the country and infrastructure is going to end up with the exact opposite result to what the person wants.
I think benefit cheats are lazy but they aren’t worth me voting to cut benefits to the majority of people who need them.
Obviously I was using artistic licence to make a point with the 'dumbass' comment, but I assure you that it does often feel, particularly online, that many on the left do feel that way about the electorate.
I hear what you are saying and broadly respect it and agree with you on some points. The reality is though that people know what issues impact their lives and it's important to listen to those and explain them. Everyone has different concerns based on their own unique circumstances and it's not for you (or me) to tell them their concerns aren't valid.
If I’m honest I think one of the problems with political discourse recently is too much notice is taken of social media by the government and the opposition.
Twitter especially is always quoted and used as evidence for things but it’s active user base is tiny.
I actually think most people want the same things from the government but I also feel the Tory party won’t provide that even though that’s the way the public perception is.
Simple population statistics against total land area isn't the be-all and end-all. Somewhere like the Netherlands (more densely populated than the UK) has a flat landscape and has fewer barriers to abosrb a greater population than, for example, Alpine countries where much of the land is highly mountainous and where populations are greatly limited to the valleys. Just sayin'
Ironically, Alpine countries (and indeed Wales) have a greater surface area than is evident on a two-dimensional map, of course.
England is marginally more densely populated than the Netherlands. Broadly twice that of Italy and Germany. Nearly four times as much as France.
I'm not saying that makes it an issue. But it's understandable if some people think it is, as it has a relationship to access to green spaces, land values, space for environmental protections, even garden sizes etc.
Even if the data can be questioned, England itself is a very densely populated country on a global scale, so it's understandable it's an issue for many.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_a...pean_countries
The Netherlands is much more densely populated than England. I thought Belgium would be too but different places seem to have different numbers.
As TBG said I’m not sure density is really a good measure here.
Shaun Bailey , desperate to be an MP , has resigned from some sort of position he had because he and his Conservative mates had a party during lockdown .
They are all at it !