Drakeford pulled no punches then

[nomad blue]

A whoosh moment then the fact is the NHS is less under pressure now than it was in 2017/18 apparently

In 2017/18 It got so bad that 68 leading A&E doctors wrote to the prime minister to spell out their concerns.
This is not now though. It was the winter of 2017-18 - the last bad flu season when more than 300 people a day were dying from that virus at one point.
And that was not even a one-off. In January 2016 hospitals were cancelling routine operations, telling patients to stay away from A&E if they could, and emergency treatment areas were being set up outside some units - just as they are now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59909860

Does that actually say it's under less pressure now? Unless I'm misreading it, it seems to suggest the contrary.

[Citizen's Nephew]

That chart showing UK public spending on health is the stand out one, look how it plummeted in 2010. Glad the current shambles have pledged to bring that back up to what it needs to be. We must have lost a fair few oldies in the last few years going from flu to covid crisis….

I agree entirely with your post, goats, and would add that because of the decimation of many social services and healthcare services/support since 2010 we were totally ill-prepared for a pandemic governments were already warned about.

Please can we not keep the myth going though that Covid only kills older people. Long Covid will be of enormous cost, but also there are countless lives shortened because of financial cuts to the NHS over a decade, and now, to make things worse, a massive backlog of essential medical services and consultations due to the pandemic.

We should also stop using the pandemic as an excuse. Lack of medical care and facilities/staff is down to our governments of all political persuasions. We need to stop making this about politics and more about incompetence and pathetic logistical/financial planning.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Does that actually say it's under less pressure now? Unless I'm misreading it, it seems to suggest the contrary.

You're right, but I doubt TWGL1 (or whatever his previous moniker was) read the article in its entirety.

[TWGL1]

I agree entirely with your post, goats, and would add that because of the decimation of many social services and healthcare services/support since 2010 we were totally ill-prepared for a pandemic governments were already warned about.

Please can we not keep the myth going though that Covid only kills older people. Long Covid will be of enormous cost, but also there are countless lives shortened because of financial cuts to the NHS over a decade, and now, to make things worse, a massive backlog of essential medical services and consultations due to the pandemic.

We should also stop using the pandemic as an excuse. Lack of medical care and facilities/staff is down to our governments of all political persuasions. We need to stop making this about politics and more about incompetence and pathetic logistical/financial planning.

That’s a good post, but what I don’t understand is why 5,000 beds been cut this year alone (post pandemic)

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...inter-lockdown

[Citizen's Nephew]

That’s a good post, but what I don’t understand is why 5,000 beds been cut this year alone (post pandemic)

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...inter-lockdown

Incompetence and pathetic logistical/financial planning by our governments. The lack of truth and acknowledgment that the strain on the NHS is no longer about infection but about the lack of GP services, staff shortages, waiting times, supplies, medications.....exacerbated by the pandemic and our reaction to it.

[lisvaneblue]

That chart showing UK public spending on health is the stand out one, look how it plummeted in 2010. Glad the current shambles have pledged to bring that back up to what it needs to be. We must have lost a fair few oldies in the last few years going from flu to covid crisis….

You are misreading the chart. There was no plummeting spending on health in 2010. The chart shows increases above inflation. Even in 2010 and since there have been increases above inflation although smaller than previous years.
The real issue with the NHS is that in current form it is barely fit for purpose.
How can it be that people are told that they might have to wait for hours for an ambulance to arrive in an emergency, or that they will have to wait half a day to be seen in A&E.? Yet we accept this as the norm.
Im not sure pushing more money into the NHS will do anything other than see the cash disappear into the ethos

[Citizen's Nephew]

You are misreading the chart. There was no plummeting spending on health in 2010. The chart shows increases above inflation. Even in 2010 and since there have been increases above inflation although smaller than previous years.
The real issue with the NHS is that in current form it is barely fit for purpose.
How can it be that people are told that they might have to wait for hours for an ambulance to arrive in an emergency, or that they will have to wait half a day to be seen in A&E.? Yet we accept this as the norm.
Im not sure pushing more money into the NHS will do anything other than see the cash disappear into the ethos

So not spending will make things better how? I'm sorry but the elephant in the room here is Brexit/Freedom of movement/ hostile xenophobia-induced staff shortages. Ironically you're right about it not being fit for purpose but that isn't the NHS's fault it is our governments' fault.

Stop with another myth that spending has increased according to a spreadsheet and government mouthpiece in a suit.

Stop with the veiled politics. Take your politics out of this and look at it cold-bloodedly.

[TWGL1]

You're right, but I doubt TWGL1 (or whatever his previous moniker was) read the article in its entirety.

I did read the article in full, otherwise I wouldn’t have posted, I actually believe the article is positive and put into perspective the current situation. If you also include population growth in the UK, alongside fewer hospital beds.

The key benchmark of A&E are waiting times, which reflects the efficiency of the NHS, and the article shows a downward trajectory, especially from this year to last year. Our Government has stated this is due to the vaccine programme.

The majority of people in hospital with Covid as you are probably aware, are admitted for other illness or conditions and tested positive whilst in hospital (this is a protocol of admission), even our our Mr Drakeford confirmed this yesterday.

Significant numbers of people in hospital who are fit to leave are unable to, because they have not got got sufficient care at home in place are classed as a hospital patient, these patients would typically have a low staff to patient ration, but are still deemed an admission.

It appears to me that some people aren’t happy reading positive articles regarding the pandemic and much prefer to live with the doom and gloom.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

You are misreading the chart. There was no plummeting spending on health in 2010. The chart shows increases above inflation. Even in 2010 and since there have been increases above inflation although smaller than previous years.
The real issue with the NHS is that in current form it is barely fit for purpose.
How can it be that people are told that they might have to wait for hours for an ambulance to arrive in an emergency, or that they will have to wait half a day to be seen in A&E.? Yet we accept this as the norm.
Im not sure pushing more money into the NHS will do anything other than see the cash disappear into the ethos

In which way is the NHS not fit for purpose and what should be done about it? The reason I ask is that I tend to hear the idea about it not being fit for purpose going hand in hand with private involvement.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Im not sure pushing more money into the NHS will do anything other than see the cash disappear into the ethos

Did you mean ethos or ether? Either would work and I'm not trying to be clever but genuinely intrigued as they have different connotations.

[lisvaneblue]

So not spending will make things better how? I'm sorry but the elephant in the room here is Brexit/Freedom of movement/ hostile xenophobia-induced staff shortages. Ironically you're right about it not being fit for purpose but that isn't the NHS's fault it is our governments' fault.

Stop with another myth that spending has increased according to a spreadsheet and government mouthpiece in a suit.

Stop with the veiled politics. Take your politics out of this and look at it cold-bloodedly.

The elephant in the room is related to Einstein's well known quote about stupidity ie doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. More money currently means no change in outcomes because very few are willing to change the model and those that want to are usually shouted down. No veiled politics...that's how it is and unless it is remodelled that's how it will stay.

[Citizen's Nephew]

The elephant in the room is related to Einstein's well known quote about stupidity ie doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. More money currently means no change in outcomes because very few are willing to change the model and those that want to are usually shouted down. No veiled politics...that's how it is and unless it is remodelled that's how it will stay.

I can live with your answer which makes sense to me. However, things are worse than I thought because the room will soon be too small for all the elephants!

[lisvaneblue]

Did you mean ethos or ether? Either would work and I'm not trying to be clever but genuinely intrigued as they have different connotations.

well spotted...You can decide which best suits the statement.

[Tito Fuente]

The elephant in the room is related to Einstein's well known quote about stupidity ie doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. More money currently means no change in outcomes because very few are willing to change the model and those that want to are usually shouted down. No veiled politics...that's how it is and unless it is remodelled that's how it will stay.

The quote is about "insanity" not "stupidity" and has wrongly been attributed to Einstein since the 80s.

Not your best form in this thread LB.

[Hilts]

The NHS is under funded , under staffed , the lack of PPE was a disgrace. Not fit for purpose???

Sorry whats not fit for purpose is the completely useless PM and his front bench with a bunch of loons it appears on the back benches.

[lisvaneblue]

In which way is the NHS not fit for purpose and what should be done about it? The reason I ask is that I tend to hear the idea about it not being fit for purpose going hand in hand with private involvement.

Main areas that need attention:

1.Budget for health and social care need sorting. As we know lots of patients are taking up hospital beds because there is no provision for care at home. Part of the reason is that the social care budget is separate, so for local councils social care means cost, staying in hospital no cost. Sort bed blocking and that will help sort pressures on the ambulance service waits out side hospitals to discharge patients

2. GP services have become detached from the patients they are there to look after.

3. There is built in 'interia' in all parts of the health service and a lot of sloppy time consuming administrative practices, plus an immense multi tiered structure. It needs to smarten up its processes and flatten its structure and operate as a matrix organisation

4. There is an ongoing tension between day to day care and outcomes and the need for the brightest people eg doctors, surgeons etc to to do research, development and improve patient care.

5 There is too much autonomy in each trust, health authority, health region etc. They can spend a lot of money on their own personal agendas

That'll do for starters

[City123]

You know what, i was going to write something that attempted to explain why people feel the way they do about us as a nation having the ability to decide what is right for us, or at least as close as we can towards it, then i thought, nah, your post is enough for me

Nobody hates Wales more than the Welsh

[lisvaneblue]

The quote is about "insanity" not "stupidity" and has wrongly been attributed to Einstein since the 80s.

Not your best form in this thread LB.

You got the message and my attention, so not too bad

[The Lone Gunman]

I travelled through Spain, France, England and Wales during December and England was by far the most lax in terms of Covid measures.

What are the vaccine take-up figures in the countries you mentioned, any idea? It's not a rhetorical question, I don't know the answer, but I was under the impression that the UK was well-placed in that respect by comparison to most of the rest of Europe.

[The Lone Gunman]

Or are wondering why their routine hospital appointment has been delayed 2 months, or they can't get a train etc.

Delayed by two months? Are you sure?!? I was scheduled to have a knee replacement operation in either late-2021 or early-2022 and was a due a 'routine' appointment with the consultant in April 2020. Naturally enough, that was cancelled. I've heard absolutely nothing since.

[The Lone Gunman]

Too many people throwing toys out of prams because they can’t walk to the bar or watch a game of football.

Having a different opinion regarding the current restrictions equates to throwing toys out of prams? Really? Over the years, I've regarded you as one of the more sensible and level-headed contributors to this board, but your posts in recent months on this subject have often been pathetic. That's a shame.

[Tito Fuente]

You got the message and my attention, so not too bad

Apology accepted.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Delayed by two months? Are you sure?!? I was scheduled to have a knee replacement operation in either late-2021 or early-2022 and was a due a 'routine' appointment with the consultant in April 2020. Naturally enough, that was cancelled. I've heard absolutely nothing since.

Yes, the situation is far worse than waiting a couple of months. I was just using a random timescale. We've had to chase up appointments that were cancelled and we never heard anything afterwards.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

I did read the article in full, otherwise I wouldn’t have posted, I actually believe the article is positive and put into perspective the current situation. If you also include population growth in the UK, alongside fewer hospital beds.

The key benchmark of A&E are waiting times, which reflects the efficiency of the NHS, and the article shows a downward trajectory, especially from this year to last year. Our Government has stated this is due to the vaccine programme.

The majority of people in hospital with Covid as you are probably aware, are admitted for other illness or conditions and tested positive whilst in hospital (this is a protocol of admission), even our our Mr Drakeford confirmed this yesterday.

Significant numbers of people in hospital who are fit to leave are unable to, because they have not got got sufficient care at home in place are classed as a hospital patient, these patients would typically have a low staff to patient ration, but are still deemed an admission.

It appears to me that some people aren’t happy reading positive articles regarding the pandemic and much prefer to live with the doom and gloom.

You really think that's a positive article? Keep clutching at those straws.

[Dorcus]

Main areas that need attention:

1.Budget for health and social care need sorting. As we know lots of patients are taking up hospital beds because there is no provision for care at home. Part of the reason is that the social care budget is separate, so for local councils social care means cost, staying in hospital no cost. Sort bed blocking and that will help sort pressures on the ambulance service waits out side hospitals to discharge patients

2. GP services have become detached from the patients they are there to look after.

3. There is built in 'interia' in all parts of the health service and a lot of sloppy time consuming administrative practices, plus an immense multi tiered structure. It needs to smarten up its processes and flatten its structure and operate as a matrix organisation

4. There is an ongoing tension between day to day care and outcomes and the need for the brightest people eg doctors, surgeons etc to to do research, development and improve patient care.

5 There is too much autonomy in each trust, health authority, health region etc. They can spend a lot of money on their own personal agendas

That'll do for starters

Not often I agree with you but I do in this case. There is plenty of scope to change the system and I propose that the way to start would be to set up a cross party parliamentary commission to initiate deliberations.

I'm actually not averse to making the NHS a means tested system at its base; charges being implemented on a sliding scale according to income/wealth and having the support of a government backed Health Insurance scheme.

As long as rock solid guarantees of the rejection of future privatisation were obtained I think it a worthwhile starting point for discussion. However you are absolutely right there needs to be a dispassionate analysis on how the administration burden can be better organized.