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Precisely. The current overview of pneumonia on the NHS website reads as follows:
“Pneumonia is swelling (inflammation) of the tissue in one or both of the lungs. It is usually caused by a bacterial infection. It can also be caused by a virus, such as Covid-19.”
It’s almost as if the Covid-19 virus weakens people, especially the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions, leaving them open to further medical complications and possible death.
Who’d have thought it?
Why do you always descend into personal attacks? You’ve apparently got your answers and enough information for an unwavering viewpoint. So why not rebuke people with the superior facts and knowledge you’ve got?
As for no of subscribers, there’s YouTube channels where kids review Lego toys with 10’s of millions of subscribers and 30yr olds who play video games all day with 50million+ subscribers.
People on YouTube have uploaded videos with hundreds and thousands of views claiming the earth is flat.
High Covid death rates skewed by people who died from other causes, admits Sajid Javid
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...-virus-admits/
From what I can tell that’s mostly since Omicron. The ONS Covid death figures were higher than the official government ones until Omicron and then there was a flip, which is now what Javid is commenting on.
The crux of the issue I want to understand is 150k deaths came from somewhere. If not Covid, where?
This is also not a new development. I think most of us already knew this was the case.
Interesting graph halfway down the article you linked showing the average death rates for the last five years and the death rates in recent times. The excess deaths. Did you spot that one?
Yes I saw that too, that’s concerning, but this article from 2020 could explain it
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...-report-shows/
Collateral damage from delays to healthcare , (25,000) 185,000 in the medium to long term - over 1m years of life lost.
It’s been proven that Poverty , mental health , fuel poverty , decline in social services support , would also have an impact but the list is not exhaustive.
185,000 is a knock in from collateral damage from withdraw/reallocation of healthcare services alone over the medium term
The other issues I’ve mentioned would also have a significant impact but there are plenty more as I’ve alluded to.
I guess it’s just my interpretation of the data available in relation to this thread and the links from the reports in the Daily Telegraph.
Unless you have a breakdown on the excess deaths you could argue either way but to assume it’s one factor is unrealistic and open to scrutiny.
Those effects aren't a given, they can be reduced by more spending in that area i.e. making sure that missed screening is caught up on.
Additionally, they aren't necessarily any better in a world where this is no lock down. If the virus had been allowed to run riot then there would have been a lot more missed appointments as the NHS wouldn't have been able to cope - this report from July 2020 at a time when there were voices within the govermnent suggesting a "herd immunity" approach fortunately doesn't seem to have ultimately had much creedence here or anywhere else
Why is it> The point is that many of the people who's underlying conditions made them susceptible to Covid may well have dies within 2 years anyway. So we need to see what the death rate is in the next 2 years to see if it is lower, than average thereby balancing out the figures. If after this time it is still higher I'd reckon that would give you a clearer view of the death rate purely due to covid.
No I’m not saying that at all, but to attribute 150,000 excess deaths to one illness is open to debate especially with the data being filtered out.
so many facts and figures to digest my head is spinning
nicked this from someone on twitter there has been an excess of 83k deaths since the pandemic started . An easy graph to show how many people have died throughout 2020 & 2021 showing covid and non covid deaths in England and Wales
Excess deaths is 30% above the 5-year ave. Since pandemic started, an excess of 83.3k have been recorded.
— Bryan Milham (@BryanMilham) January 18, 2022
Excess deaths is not exact fig but a better indicator of abnormal cause Deaths for any reason where patient had Covid in the last 28 days.
Source: ONS pic.twitter.com/f9MJ8tBD5K
If I understand you correctly, I don't understand you.
Everyone dies - most of us are agreed on that. Everyone dies just once - also generally agreed (not sure about Truthpaste!)
When a pandemic hits the excess death figures must be balanced at a later date by lower than normal death figures (allowing for the graph to adjust for changes to life expectancy etc). The impact of the pandemic when it comes to deaths is premature deaths.
I have no problem with the Covid death figures - where the measure is people who have died solely due to Covid (even then the actual cause of death will not be the virus) and those for whom underlying health factors were triggered by the virus bringing on severe illness and death that wouldn't have happened at that time.
Where excess deaths gets a bit difficult is where the 'collatoral damage' in a stressed health service leads to more deaths of people where the cause had nothing to do with Covid. Even then it is not a simple case of saying that Covid prevention measures and/or swamped hospitals caused those non-Covid deaths - in those cases where the Covid prevention measures didn't actually protect those vulnerable people.
As other posters have said the government could take other action to mitigate the impact - more/less restrictions, clearer advice and information, added screening capacity, having a pandemic emergency plan that was up to date and properly resourced, different budget choices.
I don't think there is any readily available data set for the UK that can separate those strands out. In the absence of that we get more circular arguments that go nowhere.
Again, I agree with you. One cannot disregard a person's death or say "He would have died anyway" for as you rightly point out we all die anyway.
Your comment about 'premature' deaths is the point.
If we now have a higher than historical death rate now since Mar 20 but over the same period going forward we have a lower than historical rate then that should give us more of a realistic idea of the excess deaths overall. It will suggest that certain vulnerable people who died may have died anyway in the following period, just that their death was sooner than expected. That is not a good thing of course but if you can imagine the death rate being affected by the virus like a wave, after a peak comes a trough and there is a mean line across both. Any residual excess deaths across the peak and trough will give a clearer picture.