Tommy Doyle

[Hilts]

“lightweight”? I despair. After a decade of boring and pretty unsuccessful power based “football” from Cardiff City, you think the answer to us not having enough of the ball (hardly a new phenomenon with our team) is more power!

That decade produced the 2nd best and 2nd most successful City side ive seen. Behind Malkys.

[the other bob wilson]

That decade produced the 2nd best and 2nd most successful City side ive seen. Behind Malkys.

And you think a promotion, followed by an immediate relegation, justifies a decade of crap, muscle bound football?

[the other bob wilson]

Yep.
Once again, against a Derby side who were lacking in confidence after a poor run, City had around 36% possession. During the first half, the midfield couldn't keep the ball and couldn't pass to a man in blue.
If one was to judge from the number of times players are mentioned in commentary, during the first 45 minutes, you wouldn't have known Wintle and Doyle were playing.
"After a decade of boring and pretty unsuccessful power based “football” from Cardiff City...' Are you for real? Two promotions from the Championship in the last decade! Unsuccessful! Teams like Derby would give their right legs for that record.
If you were to ask City fans for the best five midfielders over the last decade the list would probably include Medel, Whittingham, Gunnarsson, Mutch and Grujic. Why them? What were their qualities? Do you really think Wintle and Doyle are in the same class as them? And if not, why not?
This is a club who have just given a new contract to a player who was securely tucked in the pocket of two average-but-strong centre backs the whole time he was on the pitch on Tuesday.
I despair at how fans like you, and the clubs management are saying that the present quality of the team (largely loanees who can't get into their own teams; players who were not wanted by City and loaned out and inexperienced lads who have come through the youth system) is acceptable.
City's immediate future is in the doldrums.

No, I think Wintle on Doyle are a big improvement from the days of the Vaulks, Pack, Bacuna, Ralls quartet which consigned us to playing only one way. There is a need for realism from fans in that we’re now a cash strapped club with some reliance on our youth policy to put out a competitive team. Sides like Coventry, Huddersfield, Luton and Preston are prospering on smaller budgets than ours while tending to play a more enjoyable brand of football - we have weaknesses all over the pitch presently, but what we aren’t is too lightweight.

[Hilts]

And you think a promotion, followed by an immediate relegation, justifies a decade of crap, muscle bound football?

It hasnt been a decade of crap muscle bound football. Theres been a large part of it though.

Under Warnock we played some decent football in the final 3rd. The beginning of the promotion season we played some great stuff.

We got relegated but were far from disgraced and played again some decent football.

Weve been a direct side for longer than a decade as well. We were not a possession based team under Dave Jones either.

[the other bob wilson]

It hasnt been a decade of crap muscle bound football. Theres been a large part of it though.

Under Warnock we played some decent football in the final 3rd. The beginning of the promotion season we played some great stuff.

We got relegated but were far from disgraced and played again some decent football.

Weve been a direct side for longer than a decade as well. We were not a possession based team under Dave Jones either.

We played skilful footballer under Dave Jones without a team full of “bread and butter” midfielders. I’m not denying that we played some good stuff under Warnock at times, but it was all during the period when we had a centre forward who, for a brief period, was virtually unplayable at this level - we reverted to normal as soon as Zohore became a mere mortal again.

[Madlock]

That was City's midfield against a Derby team who were struggling for confidence.
They were awful - especially in the first half.
Couldn't make a pass and were completely over-run.
I'd say they are lightweight and struggle to impose themselves on the opposition midfield.

Yes, that was a pretty poor performance from the midfield as a unit. Ceded plenty of possession to Derby. But, bare in mind that there was a illness that plenty in the team were recovering from, that may explain the dip a bit. Certainly, the performance against Forest at home shows what that midfield is capable of.

[Cyclops]

No, I think Wintle on Doyle are a big improvement from the days of the Vaulks, Pack, Bacuna, Ralls quartet which consigned us to playing only one way. There is a need for realism from fans in that we’re now a cash strapped club with some reliance on our youth policy to put out a competitive team. Sides like Coventry, Huddersfield, Luton and Preston are prospering on smaller budgets than ours while tending to play a more enjoyable brand of football - we have weaknesses all over the pitch presently, but what we aren’t is too lightweight.

I've noticed before that City fans get dewy-eyed over the seasons watching City in the depths of the leagues, slogging away in the rain and mud in a dump of a stadium and hankering after those 'good old days'.
It's almost like they enjoy wallowing in watching poor quality football - even having an inferiority complex, not really wanting to watch their team in the big time.
It's such a shame. When I started watching City they were an old first division team. It's time fans held their heads up and didn't accept the terrible football that's now on display and demanded the standard which should be served up in a city that could support Premiership football.
Not lightweight? Take Flint out of the team, and City are powder puffs. They used to be feared for what they brought to games. Not anymore. The result is flirting with relegation and a dour immediate future.

[the other bob wilson]

I've noticed before that City fans get dewy-eyed over the seasons watching City in the depths of the leagues, slogging away in the rain and mud in a dump of a stadium and hankering after those 'good old days'.
It's almost like they enjoy wallowing in watching poor quality football - even having an inferiority complex, not really wanting to watch their team in the big time.
It's such a shame. When I started watching City they were an old first division team. It's time fans held their heads up and didn't accept the terrible football that's now on display and demanded the standard which should be served up in a city that could support Premiership football.
Not lightweight? Take Flint out of the team, and City are powder puffs. They used to be feared for what they brought to games. Not anymore. The result is flirting with relegation and a dour immediate future.

You read what I've been writing for the last five years or more and tell me that I've accepted "the terrible football that's now on display" - I'm always going on, far too often in many people's minds I'm sure, about it, but I don't see us being too lightweight as a current problem. Besides Flint, we have McGuinness, Morrison, Hugill and Ikpiazu, while Vaulks, Ralls and Pack are hardly what I'd call lightweights, neither is Doyle - I accept the team that lost eight in a row was a more "heavyweight" outfit than the current one, but I'd say the introduction of more athletic and technical players such as Drameh, Doyle and Doughty has improved us as has the introduction of the technically superior Ng into the back three. It's just your use of the term lightweight I don't get.

[Cyclops]

..... the technically superior Ng into the back three. It's just your use of the term lightweight I don't get.

Is this the NG who played a slow pass across a crowded penalty area against Derby? If Derby had ANYONE with an eye for goal, they would have scored then. I know NG played the pass that led to the goal (all down to the strength of City's sub, btw) but even as a kid it was drummed into me NEVER, EVER pass ACROSS THE BOX. Sorry, but that was just rank defending.

Is this really what we are arguing about: 'Lightweight'? Davies was lightweight against Curtis Davies. Wintle is lightweight, imo. Overall, to do well in the Championship, players of strength are needed. Warnock for all his faults knew this. It's the blend of strength and skill which succedes. We are nowhere near the strength of team we had when Warnock was manager. We won all those games late into the match because we wore teams down. The present City team would be over-run by that Warnock side. Go on, tell me I'm wrong.

[Rjk]

Is this the NG who played a slow pass across a crowded penalty area against Derby? If Derby had ANYONE with an eye for goal, they would have scored then. I know NG played the pass that led to the goal (all down to the strength of City's sub, btw) but even as a kid it was drummed into me NEVER, EVER pass ACROSS THE BOX. Sorry, but that was just rank defending.

Is this really what we are arguing about: 'Lightweight'? Davies was lightweight against Curtis Davies. Wintle is lightweight, imo. Overall, to do well in the Championship, players of strength are needed. Warnock for all his faults knew this. It's the blend of strength and skill which succedes. We are nowhere near the strength of team we had when Warnock was manager. We won all those games late into the match because we wore teams down. The present City team would be over-run by that Warnock side. Go on, tell me I'm wrong.

Ng also played a very nice through ball for Hugill's goal against forest. I'm not sure many of our other centre backs would be receiving the ball in that position, let alone seeing the opportunity. It would have been a hoof into the air.

Also in terms of strength being all important in this league - how many of the 17 teams above us in the table are there because they are bigger and stronger than us as a unit.

Not many I would have said.

[WJ99mobile]

Is this the NG who played a slow pass across a crowded penalty area against Derby? If Derby had ANYONE with an eye for goal, they would have scored then. I know NG played the pass that led to the goal (all down to the strength of City's sub, btw) but even as a kid it was drummed into me NEVER, EVER pass ACROSS THE BOX. Sorry, but that was just rank defending.

Is this really what we are arguing about: 'Lightweight'? Davies was lightweight against Curtis Davies. Wintle is lightweight, imo. Overall, to do well in the Championship, players of strength are needed. Warnock for all his faults knew this. It's the blend of strength and skill which succedes. We are nowhere near the strength of team we had when Warnock was manager. We won all those games late into the match because we wore teams down. The present City team would be over-run by that Warnock side. Go on, tell me I'm wrong.

Yep, he also got caught for the Liverpool goal.

He's a championship defender making championship level mistakes.

On the whole he's doing fine, much better than a few weeks ago

[DubaiDai]

Brilliant player, how much better does our shaky defence look, and that's without Morrison!

You say it as though Morrison is\was out star defender ?
He has been division 1 standard for over a season and will probably go that way in the summer

[jon1959]

You say it as though Morrison is\was out star defender ?
He has been division 1 standard for over a season and will probably go that way in the summer

Sean Morrison was in the EFL Championship team of the season for 2020-21.

https://www.efl.com/news/2021/april/...ers-announced/

He was poor this season, and hampered by injury. Whether he can get back to his previous standards I don't know - but he hasn't been a 'division 1' (League One?) player for 'over a season'.

[the other bob wilson]

Is this the NG who played a slow pass across a crowded penalty area against Derby? If Derby had ANYONE with an eye for goal, they would have scored then. I know NG played the pass that led to the goal (all down to the strength of City's sub, btw) but even as a kid it was drummed into me NEVER, EVER pass ACROSS THE BOX. Sorry, but that was just rank defending.

Is this really what we are arguing about: 'Lightweight'? Davies was lightweight against Curtis Davies. Wintle is lightweight, imo. Overall, to do well in the Championship, players of strength are needed. Warnock for all his faults knew this. It's the blend of strength and skill which succedes. We are nowhere near the strength of team we had when Warnock was manager. We won all those games late into the match because we wore teams down. The present City team would be over-run by that Warnock side. Go on, tell me I'm wrong.

It probably would, but we're not where we are in the table because we're too lightweight in my opinion. Cast your mind back to the summer of 2019 when Warnock put together a squad which Nathan Blake aptly describes as Warnockball on steroids, we were supposed to bludgeon the rest of the division into submission. Despite many supporters recognising the problem this would cause even before that side had kicked a ball in competitive action, Warnock went ahead with his squad that had strength to burn, but could not play football. Ever since then, we've been trying to recover from the damage that caused and, with parachute payments having out and an owner who has taken a financial hit because of Covid, we're not that well placed for an effective rebuilding job.

Do you think that it is always the strongest, most physical teams that win this division? From what I remember we were seen as something of an exception in 17/18 for succeeding in the way we did - in a way, Warnock deserves more credit for succeeding in 17/18 using methods which haven't tended to be successful in recent times.

One other thing, this table shows us to be the worst first half team in the Championship, while only Fulham have scored more second half goals than us. In the period seventy six minutes to ninety, only Fulham and Coventry have scored more than us and we've scored four more than we've conceded - indeed the sixth and final of the game's fifteen minute periods is the only one where we have a positive goal difference - this team has got plenty of faults, but not lasting the ninety minutes is not one of them.

https://www.soccerstats.com/timing.asp?league=england2

[Eric the Half a Bee]

It probably would, but we're not where we are in the table because we're too lightweight in my opinion. Cast your mind back to the summer of 2019 when Warnock put together a squad which Nathan Blake aptly describes as Warnockball on steroids, we were supposed to bludgeon the rest of the division into submission. Despite many supporters recognising the problem this would cause even before that side had kicked a ball in competitive action, Warnock went ahead with his squad that had strength to burn, but could not play football. Ever since then, we've been trying to recover from the damage that caused and, with parachute payments having out and an owner who has taken a financial hit because of Covid, we're not that well placed for an effective rebuilding job.

Do you think that it is always the strongest, most physical teams that win this division? From what I remember we were seen as something of an exception in 17/18 for succeeding in the way we did - in a way, Warnock deserves more credit for succeeding in 17/18 using methods which haven't tended to be successful in recent times.

One other thing, this table shows us to be the worst first half team in the Championship, while only Fulham have scored more second half goals than us. In the period seventy six minutes to ninety, only Fulham and Coventry have scored more than us and we've scored four more than we've conceded - indeed the sixth and final of the game's fifteen minute periods is the only one where we have a positive goal difference - this team has got plenty of faults, but not lasting the ninety minutes is not one of them.

https://www.soccerstats.com/timing.asp?league=england2

We were fortunate that we had a very strong defence with Morrison and Bamba, while Manga often played right back as he was too good to be left out of the side. In midfield Ralls played most of the season, Gunnarsson was injured for most of it while we saw less than 20 starts each for Grujic, Bryson, Damour; Paterson was used in several roles, sometimes as an attacking midfielder. I wouldn't describe Ralls as a particularly creative or passing midfielder yet looking at the others and playing football wasn't necessarily their strengths! It was a destructive midfield, intentionally so. It was hardly a surprise that we had our joint best season defensively for over 70 years. Up front, we had Hoilett, Mendez-Laing and Zohore, who could all be unplayable on the day and had more than enough pace and were capable of scoring sensational goals out of nothing. We haven't had a front 3 like that since.

[dembethewarrior]

Is this the NG who played a slow pass across a crowded penalty area against Derby? If Derby had ANYONE with an eye for goal, they would have scored then. I know NG played the pass that led to the goal (all down to the strength of City's sub, btw) but even as a kid it was drummed into me NEVER, EVER pass ACROSS THE BOX. Sorry, but that was just rank defending.

Is this really what we are arguing about: 'Lightweight'? Davies was lightweight against Curtis Davies. Wintle is lightweight, imo. Overall, to do well in the Championship, players of strength are needed. Warnock for all his faults knew this. It's the blend of strength and skill which succedes. We are nowhere near the strength of team we had when Warnock was manager. We won all those games late into the match because we wore teams down. The present City team would be over-run by that Warnock side. Go on, tell me I'm wrong.

To comment on the bit in bold, yes he did do that, players will make mistakes it's how to you recover that matters and he's been consistently a good performer since moving to a new position.

You point out Ng, well Drameh (who I like and think ads a lot of positive things to the team) also misplaces passes and gets the wrong side of the attacker, or isn't positioned properly when we are defending, but nobody points ot out because he does so much that is good for the team

Stop looking for negatives and concentrate on what's good.

[Cyclops]

It probably would, but we're not where we are in the table because we're too lightweight in my opinion. Cast your mind back to the summer of 2019 when Warnock put together a squad which Nathan Blake aptly describes as Warnockball on steroids, we were supposed to bludgeon the rest of the division into submission. Despite many supporters recognising the problem this would cause even before that side had kicked a ball in competitive action, Warnock went ahead with his squad that had strength to burn, but could not play football. Ever since then, we've been trying to recover from the damage that caused and, with parachute payments having out and an owner who has taken a financial hit because of Covid, we're not that well placed for an effective rebuilding job.

Do you think that it is always the strongest, most physical teams that win this division? From what I remember we were seen as something of an exception in 17/18 for succeeding in the way we did - in a way, Warnock deserves more credit for succeeding in 17/18 using methods which haven't tended to be successful in recent times.

One other thing, this table shows us to be the worst first half team in the Championship, while only Fulham have scored more second half goals than us. In the period seventy six minutes to ninety, only Fulham and Coventry have scored more than us and we've scored four more than we've conceded - indeed the sixth and final of the game's fifteen minute periods is the only one where we have a positive goal difference - this team has got plenty of faults, but not lasting the ninety minutes is not one of them.

https://www.soccerstats.com/timing.asp?league=england2

Bob, I'm going to take issue with you again.
The second half stat you've quoted doesn't prove the team can last ninety minutes. Rather its far more likely to prove that City's second half subs (mainly forwards) have performed better (and Morison called his starting XI wrong). City are top of the table for goals scored by subs.

It's daft to fall back on the 2019 season to bolster your point. Warnock was shot. I firmly believe his heart wasn't in the job after the Sala tragedy. What happened at the start of the 2019/20 season again proves nothing - Warnock was going through the motions.

Actually I think its the combination of strength and skill, with a few stand-out players that wins the Championship. And that defines Warnock's promotion winning team. Those of us who watched it unfold couldn't believe the exciting football that was played at the start of the season. His philosophy was constant - get (was it) 14 clean sheets, and we'll get promotion. It still needed goals to be scored and they came from all over the pitch - a team effort.

[The Lone Gunman]

I'm pleased to see you are paying attention.

Were you paying attention yesterday? I was and Doyle had a poor game - perhaps his worst since arriving at City.

He's a good player with bags of potential and obvious talent, but he's very far from the finished article.

[Nobody's Rep]

Were you paying attention yesterday? I was and Doyle had a poor game - perhaps his worst since arriving at City.

He's a good player with bags of potential and obvious talent, but he's very far from the finished article.

Totally agree that he had a bad day and is not the finished article but his body language going off to me indicated he knew it and was as annoyed and disappointed as anyone else. That to me is a good thing - he has played a lot of football recently and it may have taken its toll especially as was ill enough to miss QPR last week

[The Lone Gunman]

Totally agree that he had a bad day and is not the finished article but his body language going off to me indicated he knew it and was as annoyed and disappointed as anyone else. That to me is a good thing - he has played a lot of football recently and it may have taken its toll especially as was ill enough to miss QPR last week

He's a good player, no doubt that, and he'll almost certainly get better with time and experience. I just think some of the plaudits he's been getting since his arrival here have been over the top. He's had a couple of really good games, some decent games and a few where you wouldn't know he was supposed to be anything special by any stretch of the imagination.

There was a suggestion earlier in this thread that Doyle would walk into any side in the division. On yesterday's showing, he wouldn't get into the Preston team.

[ninian opinian]

Were you paying attention yesterday? I was and Doyle had a poor game - perhaps his worst since arriving at City.

He's a good player with bags of potential and obvious talent, but he's very far from the finished article.

I’m pleased you’ve fallen back in love with the mighty Bluebirds. Freebie again yesterday

[Rhiwbina Blues]

I've been really impressed with Doyle so far but first half v PNE he was to wide on the right and got in Drameh way. This also meant Ralls and Wintle had to drift over and leave loads of room on the left meaning Doughty was getting isolated.

Start of second half he was more central and we looked more balanced.

[The Lone Gunman]

I’m pleased you’ve fallen back in love with the mighty Bluebirds. Freebie again yesterday

Yes, my fifth so far this season (although I've turned down four more due to other engagements).

Thanks for your interest.

[ninian opinian]

Yes, my fifth so far this season (although I've turned down four more due to other engagements).

Thanks for your interest.

Thanks for your attendance.

[The Lone Gunman]

Thanks for your attendance.

Pleasure. I'm glad it means so much to you.