RMT Strikes

[WJ99mobile]

Surely striking is a thing of the past?

Whilst I am a fan of nationalisation in general, reasons like these arbitrary strikes are making it less and less possible.

[ninian opinian]

Surely striking is a thing of the past?

Whilst I am a fan of nationalisation in general, reasons like these arbitrary strikes are making it less and less possible.

Good on them, we need more people to wake up in this country and fight for better pay, terms and conditions. I never understand how another working class person can castigate another working class person for this.

[Organ Morgan.]

Nurses, teachers and every other public sector worker had better grow a pair quick or prepare to make regular visits to their nearest foodbank.

[the other bob wilson]

Surely striking is a thing of the past?

Whilst I am a fan of nationalisation in general, reasons like these arbitrary strikes are making it less and less possible.

If the right to strike was taken away from employees, do you think the Government of the day and employers would introduce something which would enable workers to fight against what are often justified grievances? I reckon you'd be in for a long wait.

I can recall a time when unions would recommend their members walk out at the drop of a hat and there were times in the late seventies and early eighties where we'd all walk out of Companies House for what were the flimsiest of reasons, but those days disappeared decades ago - the balance has now swung too much in favour of the employers and the workers' right to strike has to be maintained.

[Cleve van Leef]

If the right to strike was taken away from employees, do you think the Government of the day and employers would introduce something which would enable workers to fight against what are often justified grievances? I reckon you'd be in for a long wait.

I can recall a time when unions would recommend their members walk out at the drop of a hat and there were times in the late seventies and early eighties where we'd all walk out of Companies House for what were the flimsiest of reasons, but those days disappeared decades ago - the balance has now swung too much in favour of the employers and the workers' right to strike has to be maintained.

You’re quite right about the 70’s and 80’s Bob and even prior to those times. Trouble is Maggie crushed the unions and as you say the balance has swung too much the other way

[HiVis]

If the right to strike was taken away from employees, do you think the Government of the day and employers would introduce something which would enable workers to fight against what are often justified grievances? I reckon you'd be in for a long wait.

I can recall a time when unions would recommend their members walk out at the drop of a hat and there were times in the late seventies and early eighties where we'd all walk out of Companies House for what were the flimsiest of reasons, but those days disappeared decades ago - the balance has now swung too much in favour of the employers and the workers' right to strike has to be maintained.

I wouldn't say that employers have more power than employees but I do agree that the right to strike must be maintained. I'd also argue that the claim in an earlier post that the strike is without merit is probably wrong. Typically unions only strike if they feel there is a very real grievance that management are not listening to them.

The the only way to invest in rail, including increasing pay, is to put up prices. Given the cost of living is rising, this is not going to go down well with the public.

[insider]

I wouldn't say that employers have more power than employees but I do agree that the right to strike must be maintained. I'd also argue that the claim in an earlier post that the strike is without merit is probably wrong. Typically unions only strike if they feel there is a very real grievance that management are not listening to them.

The the only way to invest in rail, including increasing pay, is to put up prices. Given the cost of living is rising, this is not going to go down well with the public.

Or take them back into public ownership and take out the massive profits given to shareholders and use the money to reinvest in the services and lowering ticket prices like the majority of European countries.

[JamesWales]

The mandate here is quite something, in turns of turn out and support for the strike - there is clearly something amiss within the railway industry.

That said, this is an industry that for two years was basically on it's arse and was saved through taxpayers money - as we now try and get backon our feet as a country, I'm not entirely sure this will endear them to the public

[HiVis]

Or take them back into public ownership and take out the massive profits given to shareholders and use the money to reinvest in the services and lowering ticket prices like the majority of European countries.

its a bit more complicated than that. Network Rail is publicly owned, and passes on its costs to the franchise holders. Without a franchise model the government will lose billions in franchise fees and taxes levied on profits.

in 2016, the train operating companies collect money from the passengers via fares (£9.4 billion in 2015/16) and other forms of income (e.g. parking and catering) and spend it on running trains. They spent £2.8 billion on staffing, £0.6 billion on fuel, £1.4 billion on leasing trains, £1.3 billion on infrastructure access charges and £2.8 billion on other expenditure. They also paid out £228 million in dividends, around 1.2% of the total industry expenditure

dividends only account for 2.5% of revenue received, so private ownership and the payment of dividends doesn't impact pricing as much as you think it does.

source

However, privatisation only works where there is genuine competition, and the franchise model whereby you only have one operator goes against the theory. so in this respect, privatisation is more ideologically driven than for practicality.

Whatever happens, we really do need to invest more, and whether that is public or private is moot.

[sneggyblubird]

As inflation gets higher so do pay strikes.

[JamesWales]

its a bit more complicated than that. Network Rail is publicly owned, and passes on its costs to the franchise holders. Without a franchise model the government will lose billions in franchise fees and taxes levied on profits.



dividends only account for 2.5% of revenue received, so private ownership and the payment of dividends doesn't impact pricing as much as you think it does.

source

However, privatisation only works where there is genuine competition, and the franchise model whereby you only have one operator goes against the theory. so in this respect, privatisation is more ideologically driven than for practicality.

Whatever happens, we really do need to invest more, and whether that is public or private is moot.

This is the issue really. Privatisation has worked well on coach travel, with megabus and national express etc competing, but on the railways, there are only limited routes offering genuine competition, and so the entire principle falls down, as you effectively have a series of monopolies.

[Rjk]

This is the issue really. Privatisation has worked well on coach travel, with megabus and national express etc competing, but on the railways, there are only limited routes offering genuine competition, and so the entire principle falls down, as you effectively have a series of monopolies.

Yes, spot on.

The only competition you get on the railways is once every 20 years when they tender for the franchise.

[Raymond Holt]

I wouldn't say that employers have more power than employees

I think the fact wages have stagnated for 10+ years is a good indicator that employers have more power than employees, meanwhile the gap between the poorest in society (including those in employment) and the richest has continued to widen.

[Doucas]

Surely striking is a thing of the past?

Whilst I am a fan of nationalisation in general, reasons like these arbitrary strikes are making it less and less possible.

You miss the amount of wage stagnation that's occurred since 2008?

[HiVis]

You miss the amount of wage stagnation that's occurred since 2008?

since 2008 wages have risen faster than inflation.

source

[Doucas]

since 2008 wages have risen faster than inflation.

source

I see nothing on that which proves you right? It only goes up to 2017 for a start..

[HiVis]

I think the fact wages have stagnated for 10+ years is a good indicator that employers have more power than employees, meanwhile the gap between the poorest in society (including those in employment) and the richest has continued to widen.

See my post above, wages have typically been rising faster than inflation since 2008. It is only since the end of the pandemic and the war in Ukraine that has seen inflation hit 40 year highs and have been above the BoE target of 2%.

[HiVis]

I see nothing on that which proves you right?

inflation has been less than 2% pa since 2008, save for very recently when the post pandemic supply chain issues and the war on Ukraine have seen price rises not seen since the early 70s.

[HiVis]

@doucas

this is a good graphic, which shows that in real terms, even allowing for CPI, general wage growth has been positive since 2008.

wage growth

[Doucas]

inflation has been less than 2% pa since 2008, save for very recently when the post pandemic supply chain issues and the war on Ukraine have seen price rises not seen since the early 70s.

Ok so let's say you're right and that inflation has only gone up 2% a year which over 14 years is 28%. (I believe its gone up far higher, housing costs have gone up higher than 28% as has electricity, gas and fuel).

According to this source wages have gone up by only 21%. Which is a 7% reduction. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1002964/average-full-time-annual-earnings-in-the-uk/

I'd also argue that average wage is a poor metric to compare against and median wage would be better due to inequality growing.

[xsnaggle]

Or take them back into public ownership and take out the massive profits given to shareholders and use the money to reinvest in the services and lowering ticket prices like the majority of European countries.

Scot rail has only been in public ownership weeks or months and the RTM is already calling everyone out on strike. Nationalisation hasn't helped there at all. They have just had to cut 30% of services due to union members refusing to do overtime ad the like, which means less revenue than ever to settle the issue.

[xsnaggle]

Ok so let's say you're right and that inflation has only gone up 2% a year which over 14 years is 28%. (I believe its gone up far higher, housing costs have gone up higher than 28% as has electricity, gas and fuel).

According to this source wages have gone up by only 21%. Which is a 7% reduction. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ngs-in-the-uk/

I'd also argue that average wage is a poor metric to compare against and median wage would be better due to inequality growing.

Its actually more than 28% because the 2% lift is year on year. As an exercise to demonstrate start with 100 and add 2% 14 times. You'll be surprised. I think it's nearer35%.

[Doucas]

Its actually more than 28% because the 2% lift is year on year. As an exercise to demonstrate start with 100 and add 2% 14 times. You'll be surprised. I think it's nearer35%.

Really good point.

[insider]

Scot rail has only been in public ownership weeks or months and the RTM is already calling everyone out on strike. Nationalisation hasn't helped there at all. They have just had to cut 30% of services due to union members refusing to do overtime ad the like, which means less revenue than ever to settle the issue.

Well give them a rise in line with inflation then.
End of strike.

[Eric Cartman]

This is the issue really. Privatisation has worked well on coach travel, with megabus and national express etc competing, but on the railways, there are only limited routes offering genuine competition, and so the entire principle falls down, as you effectively have a series of monopolies.

Exactly this, and the recent decision by ofgem does precisely the same to the energy market. But I dont think this is by accident. I think that is the end game of croney capitalism, get the money to the people you want to have it and then kick away the ladder.