There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

[North Cardiff Blue]

Re: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

If you post a link to the Daily Mail, you pretty much kill any desire for discourse. I didn't even click on the link.

Personally I'll glance at all articles on my feed microsoft edge, which will be all papers, sky sports, BBC, all sorts mostly open sport, theres good and bad in all, but I like to have an open mind.

I don't agree with everyones point of view but i'll often read them and form my own opinion, which isn't as black and white as most peoples these days.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

I thought the article was rambling but not racist. It seems to shout that all this noise about asylum seekers and Rwanda is drowning out the real issue but then gets scared of the audience and shouts that's really important as well.

Immigration was perhaps the major driver for many working class people who voted for Brexit. There was little discussion at the time that half the immigrants came from non-EU countries over which we had control of movement already. The article suggests that the overall net numbers have not shifted, just the balance of where these people came from.

I never got the sense that the libertarians driving Brexit worried too much about immigration. It was just a useful vehicle for their own ends. In other instances those from existing migrant communities may have voted to leave to increase the chances of people from their ancestoral homes coming to the UK.

I tried and failed to find details on where recent migrants have come from, though the article does explain that the expansion of student numbers is a major contributor. Slightly ironic in the week that Liz Truss is encouraging us all to wean ourselves off China that the ability of the Home Office to issue visas to Chinese students shows no sign of slowing.

How the Daily Mail starting to blow the horn on wider immigration will play with its readers will be interesting. They could ask for instance who has been in power whilst hordes of people have been "swamping" the country.

It will also be interesting to see when new post-Brexit trade deals come on stream how much easier it will be for people wanting to work and study in this country to be able to do so, further increasing numbers. Trade deals by their very nature (the EU one excepted) involve a loss of sovereignty as goods, capital, services and more pertinently, labour cross barriers more easily.

Not much discussion on whether all this migration benefits the UK at all, certainly not in the article itself, but I guess that's the nature of this particular beast.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

I thought the article was rambling but not racist. It seems to shout that all this noise about asylum seekers and Rwanda is drowning out the real issue but then gets scared of the audience and shouts that's really important as well.

Immigration was perhaps the major driver for many working class people who voted for Brexit. There was little discussion at the time that half the immigrants came from non-EU countries over which we had control of movement already. The article suggests that the overall net numbers have not shifted, just the balance of where these people came from.

I never got the sense that the libertarians driving Brexit worried too much about immigration. It was just a useful vehicle for their own ends. In other instances those from existing migrant communities may have voted to leave to increase the chances of people from their ancestoral homes coming to the UK.

I tried and failed to find details on where recent migrants have come from, though the article does explain that the expansion of student numbers is a major contributor. Slightly ironic in the week that Liz Truss is encouraging us all to wean ourselves off China that the ability of the Home Office to issue visas to Chinese students shows no sign of slowing.

How the Daily Mail starting to blow the horn on wider immigration will play with its readers will be interesting. They could ask for instance who has been in power whilst hordes of people have been "swamping" the country.

It will also be interesting to see when new post-Brexit trade deals come on stream how much easier it will be for people wanting to work and study in this country to be able to do so, further increasing numbers. Trade deals by their very nature (the EU one excepted) involve a loss of sovereignty as goods, capital, services and more pertinently, labour cross barriers more easily.

Not much discussion on whether all this migration benefits the UK at all, certainly not in the article itself, but I guess that's the nature of this particular beast.

Balanced, fair and what I wish I had written. My deep loathing of the DM spilled over (just in case anybody hadn't noticed). JamesWales can still f*ck off though! At least until after lunch.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

I thought the immigration was going to stop after Brexit when we regained control of the borders from the EU.

It was because the EU never controlled our borders.

We were never in Schengen so even EU citizens had to show passports to get in. As for allowing non-EU citizens into the country, that has always been handled by the UK. The only difference is that EU citizens don't have the right to work here, neither do we have the automatic right to work in Europe.

Taking back control of our borders was another Brexit lie that lots stupidly believed.

[JamesWales]

Re: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

If you post a link to the Daily Mail, you pretty much kill any desire for discourse. I didn't even click on the link.

We get a lot of this, but I don't agree with that mindset. How do you make sure you get a good cross section of opinions if you don't read them? How do you know what the article is about if you don't click on the link? How do you make sure you aren't in an echo chamber and that your arguments are capable of changing? If nothing else, how do you know how to win arguments against those who disagree if you don't read what they are reading? Who was it who said "Know your enemy"?

[Divine Wright]

Re: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

It's people like the OP that makes me want to avoid the internet and ccmb altogether. It just turns the whole experience of browsing a football forum into a test of your faith in humanity and unfortunately they are getting the better of me. It's enough that you have to put up with the gobby football types let alone put up with this crap too.

Ignore it ? Maybe. But there really should be better control over this sort of content. Shift it to the politics forum or even make a new forum for anything related to the daily mail or similar far right content so people like this can get a belly full without clogging up the main forum with useless shite.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

We get a lot of this, but I don't agree with that mindset. How do you make sure you get a good cross section of opinions if you don't read them? How do you know what the article is about if you don't click on the link? How do you make sure you aren't in an echo chamber and that your arguments are capable of changing? If nothing else, how do you know how to win arguments against those who disagree if you don't read what they are reading? Who was it who said "Know your enemy"?

Rage Against The Machine

[JamesWales]

Re: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

Rage Against The Machine

To ensure balance I make sure I listen to RATM and the Osmonds in equal measure.

[Divine Wright]

Re: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

We get a lot of this, but I don't agree with that mindset. How do you make sure you get a good cross section of opinions if you don't read them? How do you know what the article is about if you don't click on the link? How do you make sure you aren't in an echo chamber and that your arguments are capable of changing? If nothing else, how do you know how to win arguments against those who disagree if you don't read what they are reading? Who was it who said "Know your enemy"?

You are wasting you time trying to glean anything from the Daily Mail and trying to win arguments against people who read it. I mean that.

Have you ever gained any insights or had any success in either of these objectives?

Anyhow, you don't need read the Daily Mail to understand the basic mindset of someone who is xenophobic. They are scared of things they perceive as being different....in the best case scenario. Worst case, they are bullies and enjoy the power.

[JamesWales]

Re: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

You are wasting you time trying to glean anything from the Daily Mail and trying to win arguments against people who read it. I mean that.

Have you ever gained any insights or had any success in either of these objectives?

Anyhow, you don't need read the Daily Mail to understand the basic mindset of someone who is xenophobic. They are scared of things they perceive as being different....in the best case scenario. Worst case, they are bullies and enjoy the power.

I find the most narrow minded people to be those who either only read the Daily Mail, or those who insist upon never reading it. Most balanced people will read things from across the spectrum.

There are some topics, certain newspapers will just never report on, and that polite society wish would go away, so it's important that others do.

More generally, the opinion pieces I take with a pinch of salt, and there's a clear agenda, but I do find they will illustrate articles better and dig into things a bit more thoroughly than some other newspapers or websites tbh.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

I find the most narrow minded people to be those who either only read the Daily Mail, or those who insist upon never reading it. Most balanced people will read things from across the spectrum.

There are some topics, certain newspapers will just never report on, and that polite society wish would go away, so it's important that others do.

More generally, the opinion pieces I take with a pinch of salt, and there's a clear agenda, but I do find they will illustrate articles better and dig into things a bit more thoroughly than some other newspapers or websites tbh.

Surely you can see that The Guardian may not be everyone's cup of tea ....I find it a bore festival ....but its a fair left leaning but certainly not socialist paper

The Daily Mail ?

Come on ff sake , it's off the scale , alongside The Sun , with its right leaning stance


The UK press is strangled by the right wing

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

I find the most narrow minded people to be those who either only read the Daily Mail, or those who insist upon never reading it. Most balanced people will read things from across the spectrum.

There are some topics, certain newspapers will just never report on, and that polite society wish would go away, so it's important that others do.

More generally, the opinion pieces I take with a pinch of salt, and there's a clear agenda, but I do find they will illustrate articles better and dig into things a bit more thoroughly than some other newspapers or websites tbh.

I've said to you before that if you didn't display such sanctimony and smugness with this insistence that you are balanced I'd have (and I'm sure others would) have greater respect and enjoy debating with you. But jeez it drives me insane.

And I know you're full of sh*t when you say you'll listen to the Osmonds in equal measure. Nobody would do that

Lunch was vegan, fair-trade and delicious btw.

[JamesWales]

Re: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

I've said to you before that if you didn't display such sanctimony and smugness with this insistence that you are balanced I'd have (and I'm sure others would) have greater respect and enjoy debating with you. But jeez it drives me insane.

And I know you're full of sh*t when you say you'll listen to the Osmonds in equal measure. Nobody would do that

Lunch was vegan, fair-trade and delicious btw.

But you are anything but balanced. Most of the stuff you write is solidly left-wing. So criticising them is only going to be in one direction, in much the same way that a centrist person will always criticise someone like Jeremy Corbyn from only one direction.

If it drives you insane, then stop writing such extreme stuff. In this thread alone, you have mentioned Stormfront, and suggested people who like the article should hang out with them. Then you've labelled the article racist and said it was a white guy who wrote it for white guys.

That's inflammatory stuff, and it's right that people pull you up on it. If you don't like it, then don't write such unhinged guff in the first place.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

Personally I'll glance at all articles on my feed microsoft edge, which will be all papers, sky sports, BBC, all sorts mostly open sport, theres good and bad in all, but I like to have an open mind.

I don't agree with everyones point of view but i'll often read them and form my own opinion, which isn't as black and white as most peoples these days.

I used to use these aggregate newsfeeds but there were just too many hideous pieces from writers and publications I had little respect for so I stopped. Apple News I switched off and if your using Microsoft Edge, I'm not kidding, it's like falling down the rabbit-hole.

I went for the jugular earlier and for that I apologise. In my defence I was left unsupervised without coffee.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

But you are anything but balanced. Most of the stuff you write is solidly left-wing. So criticising them is only going to be in one direction, in much the same way that a centrist person will always criticise someone like Jeremy Corbyn from only one direction.

If it drives you insane, then stop writing such extreme stuff. In this thread alone, you have mentioned Stormfront, and suggested people who like the article should hang out with them. Then you've labelled the article racist and said it was a white guy who wrote it for white guys.

That's inflammatory stuff, and it's right that people pull you up on it. If you don't like it, then don't write such unhinged guff in the first place.

You make this great thing about being balanced, but I can honestly say that I could comfortably count the number of times I’ve been surprised by a political opinion of yours on the fingers of one hand - you’re exactly the same as many of us on here in that your political opinions aren’t balanced they’re predictable.