Fascism?

[JamesWales]

I’d say nos. 1,2,3,7,9,10,11,12 and 13 could be applied to this Government.

Jesus, that's bonkers. You honestly think Britain is "well on the road to fascism"? Christ alive, Bob.

[the other bob wilson]

Jesus, that's bonkers. You honestly think Britain is "well on the road to fascism"? Christ alive, Bob.

No, it’s different to what you think that’s all.

Point One - union flags everywhere including use by Labour and attacks on “wokeism” - whatever that is.
Point Two - proposed leaving of the European Court of human rights. Crackdown on the right to protest.
Point three - endless “culture wars and attacks on “wokeism” - wherever that is.
Point seven - “secure our borders”, sending people to Rwanda.
Point nine - Obsession with “business” over people by some Conservatives during lockdowns.
Point ten - They been doing it for decades, if not centuries.
Point eleven - BBC public enemy number one, privatising Channel 4.
Point twelve - Always been the “hang ‘em, flog em” party.
Point thirteen - where do you start with this lot? PPE is as good as anywhere.

[the other bob wilson]

Well done sir Bernard Jenkin.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...bernard-jenkin

[Lither_1927]

Paul Mason's book is an interesting argument that right wing populism and authoritarian Conservatism is morphing into fascism. Not there yet but well on the way - with numerous parallels between now and the 1920s/1930s. And this is a global threat.

I went to a talk he did to promote the book last year (Sheffield's Off The Shelf Festival) and was convinced by a lot (not all) of what he said and wrote.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...o-stop-fascism


Attachment 5079

Mason is an extremist and extremely Machiavellian. Not a nice guy at all.

[Lither_1927]

Jesus, that's bonkers. You honestly think Britain is "well on the road to fascism"? Christ alive, Bob.

Like many, including you James. He doesn't know what fascism is. I'd recommend reading a publication by Oswald Moseley and avoid ANYTHING by Owen Jones or Paul Mason.

Jon - What actual fascist texts have you read? Mad lad Mason doesn't count.

[jon1959]

Mason is an extremist and extremely Machiavellian. Not a nice guy at all.

Good to know irony isn't dead.

What didn't you agree with in his book or his various interviews? I have my own opinions and don't agree with all of Mason's views - but I assume your analysis goes beyond 'Not a nice guy at all'?

[jon1959]

Like many, including you James. He doesn't know what fascism is. I'd recommend reading a publication by Oswald Moseley and avoid ANYTHING by Owen Jones or Paul Mason.

Jon - What actual fascist texts have you read? Mad lad Mason doesn't count.

What fascist texts do you recommend - other than Oswald Moseley?

Any blockbusters from Hitler, Mussolini or Franco you think we should be diving into?

For myself I have read, watched, listened to fascists since the late 1970s. I have read their leaflets and grafitti, counter demonstrated them from the ANL and RAR through to the EDL clowns more recently, and read anti-fascist analysis going back to Trotsky's pamphlets in the 1930s. More recently I have come across pamphlets and books from Umberto Eco and Paul Mason that helped me clarify my thinking about the difference (if any) between right wing populism, authoritarianism, and what has happened in the past 10 years in the USA, UK, Poland, Hungary, Israel, Russia, India, the Philippines and Brazil - and the parallels with European and American fascism in the 1920s and 1930s.

I agree with Mason that there is no single fascist state in the world just now - but many where currents of fascism are gaining serious ground and providing 'the architecture' for other regressive and dangerous movements.

[Lither_1927]

Good to know irony isn't dead.

What didn't you agree with in his book or his various interviews? I have my own opinions and don't agree with all of Mason's views - but I assume your analysis goes beyond 'Not a nice guy at all'?

I don't like the way he conducts himself, how he coldly discusses political manoeuvres. I remember him on telly, talking all over a woman he disagreed with once. Nasty piece of work and ever so slightly mad and definitely capable of murder. politically i disagree with him on a lot of things as you can imagine. What actual fascists have you read?

[Lither_1927]

What fascist texts do you recommend - other than Oswald Moseley?

Any blockbusters from Hitler, Mussolini or Franco you think we should be diving into?

For myself I have read, watched, listened to fascists since the late 1970s. I have read their leaflets and grafitti, counter demonstrated them from the ANL and RAR through to the EDL clowns more recently, and read anti-fascist analysis going back to Trotsky's pamphlets in the 1930s. More recently I have come across pamphlets and books from Umberto Eco and Paul Mason that helped me clarify my thinking about the difference (if any) between right wing populism, authoritarianism, and what has happened in the past 10 years in the USA, UK, Poland, Hungary, Israel, Russia, India, the Philippines and Brazil - and the parallels with European and American fascism in the 1920s and 1930s.

I agree with Mason that there is no single fascist state in the world just now - but many where currents of fascism are gaining serious ground and providing 'the architecture' for other regressive and dangerous movements.

As Fascists go, What's wrong with Oswald Moseley? The man was decades ahead of his time, compassionate, highly intelligent and devoted to all strata of British society. I highly recommend his autobiography "My Life"

[Dorcus]

Gulp!!! And this person still maintains his or her username is not an anagram of Hitler.

[Lither_1927]

Gulp!!! And this person still maintains his or her username is not an anagram of Hitler.

My name is an anagram of Hitler, there's no denying that, but it wasn't intentional.
Hitler was a National Socialist from what i gather. That's slightly different from fascism.

[Dorcus]

My name is an anagram of Hitler, there's no denying that, but it wasn't intentional.
Hitler was a National Socialist from what i gather. That's slightly different from fascism.

You think Nazis weren't fascists?

[Doucas]

Like many, including you James. He doesn't know what fascism is. I'd recommend reading a publication by Oswald Moseley and avoid ANYTHING by Owen Jones or Paul Mason.

Jon - What actual fascist texts have you read? Mad lad Mason doesn't count.

I'm sure you're an expert on fascism. What in this list isn't fascist then?

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

[JamesWales]

No, it’s different to what you think that’s all.

Point One - union flags everywhere including use by Labour and attacks on “wokeism” - whatever that is.
Point Two - proposed leaving of the European Court of human rights. Crackdown on the right to protest.
Point three - endless “culture wars and attacks on “wokeism” - wherever that is.
Point seven - “secure our borders”, sending people to Rwanda.
Point nine - Obsession with “business” over people by some Conservatives during lockdowns.
Point ten - They been doing it for decades, if not centuries.
Point eleven - BBC public enemy number one, privatising Channel 4.
Point twelve - Always been the “hang ‘em, flog em” party.
Point thirteen - where do you start with this lot? PPE is as good as anywhere.

I don’t for one moment believe that you actually think we are ‘well on the road’ to fascism, Bob.

Citing the flag of the country being on display or proposed privatisation of Channel 4 or decades old policies on capital punishment are not good examples at all. There are about 30 Welsyh flags flying from Cardiff Castle. Are we on the road to fascism too?

[JamesWales]

What fascist texts do you recommend - other than Oswald Moseley?

Any blockbusters from Hitler, Mussolini or Franco you think we should be diving into?

For myself I have read, watched, listened to fascists since the late 1970s. I have read their leaflets and grafitti, counter demonstrated them from the ANL and RAR through to the EDL clowns more recently, and read anti-fascist analysis going back to Trotsky's pamphlets in the 1930s. More recently I have come across pamphlets and books from Umberto Eco and Paul Mason that helped me clarify my thinking about the difference (if any) between right wing populism, authoritarianism, and what has happened in the past 10 years in the USA, UK, Poland, Hungary, Israel, Russia, India, the Philippines and Brazil - and the parallels with European and American fascism in the 1920s and 1930s.

I agree with Mason that there is no single fascist state in the world just now - but many where currents of fascism are gaining serious ground and providing 'the architecture' for other regressive and dangerous movements.

I applaud your history of opposing fascism Jon. Can I ask your position on communism? You cite historical examples like Mussolini etc, and then allude to the last ten years in Hungary, Poland, USA etc.

What of the historical examples of communism around the world? Do you oppose that in equal measure?

That's a genuine open question. I used to be very left wing myself, would wear a CCCP top and generally viewed communism as good, if slightly misguided, until I fully understood the horrors of communism. I wonder whether that's your position?

[Lither_1927]

You think Nazis weren't fascists?

The Germans were National Socialists. Italy was Fascist.

[Lither_1927]

I'm sure you're an expert on fascism. What in this list isn't fascist then?

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

Not an expert but unlike anyone in this thread so far, i have actually read texts from Oswald Moseley, who was a Fascist, a very intelligent, compasionate patriot who left the Labour party to espouse a Fascist manifesto. I can send anyone his Ebooks if they want.

That link is nonesense from what i can tell. Moseley didn't propose quelling academics or anything like that. I'd urge anyone to read Moseley texts, for example, he wanted to deal with parasitic international bankers, a currupt press funded by the rich for the rich. Would you disagree with that?

[the other bob wilson]

I don’t for one moment believe that you actually think we are ‘well on the road’ to fascism, Bob.

Citing the flag of the country being on display or proposed privatisation of Channel 4 or decades old policies on capital punishment are not good examples at all. There are about 30 Welsyh flags flying from Cardiff Castle. Are we on the road to fascism too?

You seem to think that unless someone is acting like Hitler or Mussolini they can't be fascists - the examples I gave were ones I came up with after about five minutes thinking and while I accept some are stronger than others, they all fall within the definition of that list of fourteen. The last decade or so has seen an increase in populist, nationalist type Governments and the current UK one is the most populist, nationalist one of my lifetime - you go down that route and you're heading towards fascism as outlined in that article.

[JamesWales]

You seem to think that unless someone is acting like Hitler or Mussolini they can't be fascists - the examples I gave were ones I came up with after about five minutes thinking and while I accept some are stronger than others, they all fall within the definition of that list of fourteen. The last decade or so has seen an increase in populist, nationalist type Governments and the current UK one is the most populist, nationalist one of my lifetime - you go down that route and you're heading towards fascism as outlined in that article.

Bob, that list was plucked from the air by Doucus (he who with zero irony is quick to call out fascism but happy to label Tories "noxious scum"). It doesn't have authority. It presents 14 traits that may well be traits of fascism, but are also general traits of all societies to varying degrees. Showing a national flag? Concern with law and order? Presentation of common enemies? This will apply to all countries.

Nonetheless, yes they may be traits of fascism also, but that doesn't mean the UK is 'far down the road' on that path. To the letter (apart perhaps from number 8) the traits you mention are also traits of communism. It doesn't mean the UK is 'far down the road' to communism either.

I do agree that the recent UK government was more populist than in recent times (although no more than what Corbyn proposed - it is the flavour of the month globally as you allude to) but that doesn't mean we are on the road to fascism. That's just extreme talk. Same as if we build new council houses or invest in the NHS or sign a trading deal with Cuba we are not "far down the road to communism".

You know full well the UK isn't fascist, nor heading to it. You know we have a free press, judiciary and legal system and you know that there will be countless local and national elections in the coming days, weeks, months and years that will be free and fair.

To imply we are like Germany in the 1930's or Spain and Italy earlier in this century is absurd. And yes, opinions are opinions, but fascism and it's victims are also fact and it's hyperbolic in the extreme to suggest what is being said in this thread.

[HiVis]

We are well on the road to fascism under this government according to this political scientist. https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

Many members on this forum actively support much of the list above.

You can apply that in equal measure to the left and right.

I dont see this country becoming authoritarian or fascist any time soon. Those who think otherwise are entitled to their opinion, but it smacks of political expediency to say so.

Boris had to go though, he was abhorrent. The GE can't come soon enough, we definitely need a change in government

[HiVis]

The Germans were National Socialists. Italy was Fascist.

Hitler modelled the NSDAP on Mussolinis black shirts. The nazis were fascists on steroids

[Lither_1927]

You seem to think that unless someone is acting like Hitler or Mussolini they can't be fascists - the examples I gave were ones I came up with after about five minutes thinking and while I accept some are stronger than others, they all fall within the definition of that list of fourteen. The last decade or so has seen an increase in populist, nationalist type Governments and the current UK one is the most populist, nationalist one of my lifetime - you go down that route and you're heading towards fascism as outlined in that article.

No way is Boris anywhere near a fascist, honestly this is laughable. He's a liberal, he's not even that Conservative.
Boris and Theresa May let in on average 300.000 foriengers a year NET. Infact, including students Boris let in 1 million foreigners last year. How is that the work of a Fascist? You cite the rwanda deportations but that's a very very small amount of people, done for political reasons not ideological.

Boris is NOT fascist, the word Fascist has been contorted and weaponised by the left. Whipping up gullible people into believing we are living in literal FASCISM. It's scary how easily people fall for this.

[Dorcus]

No way is Boris anywhere near a fascist, honestly this is laughable. He's a liberal, he's not even that Conservative.
Boris and Theresa May let in on average 300.000 foriengers a year NET. Infact, including students Boris let in 1 million foreigners last year. How is that the work of a Fascist? You cite the rwanda deportations but that's a very very small amount of people, done for political reasons not ideological.

Boris is NOT fascist, the word Fascist has been contorted and weaponised by the left. Whipping up gullible people into believing we are living in literal FASCISM. It's scary how easily people fall for this.

When you start studying your O' Levels you might begin to understand what Fascism really means behind convenient labels. In all fairness I hope you learn something and do well in your exams because despite your naiivety you seem a willing student.

[Lither_1927]

Hitler modelled the NSDAP on Mussolinis black shirts. The nazis were fascists on steroids

Nah very few people get past the hysterical propoganda of National Socialism and Fascism and therefore don't know what they're talking about. I don't blame them, the propoganda is strong. Hitler may have taken aspects from Italy, but the German national Socialists were distinctly different from Italian fascists.
The main difference between Fascism and National Socialism is the role of the state in each system. Fascism is for statism, it teaches that the state is primary. And that the state forms the nation. In contrast National Socialism teaches that the native folk/people are primary and form the nation.In National Socialism the state serves the folk. National Socialism is NOT totalitarian.

Here is a quote from Italy's Fascist leader Benitto Mussolini from The Doctrine Of Fascism...

"The Fascist conception of the state is all embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have any worth. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist state, a synthesis and a unit of all values, interprets, develops and potentiates the whole life of a people...it is not the nation that generates the state, rather it is the state that generates the nation, conferring volition and therefore real life on people. In the Fascist conception the state is an absolute before which individuals and groups are relative..."

Now contrast this with a quote from Hitler on National Socialism ...

"The state is only a means to an end. It's end and it's purpose are to preserve and promote a community of human beings who are physically aswell as spiritually kindered...states which do not serve this purpose have no justification for their existence. They are monstrosities"

[Lither_1927]

When you start studying your O' Levels you might begin to understand what Fascism really means behind convenient labels. In all fairness I hope you learn something and do well in your exams because despite your naiivety you seem a willing student.

I've read Oswald Moseley on Fascism/National Socialism. What have you read on Fascism/National Socialism. Educate me...