While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

[ninian opinian]

Re: While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

Again, the stark difference here is that the Nazis repressed and then slaughtered Jews (and others). Jews were not paying thousands of pounds to enter Germany. That some people fail to grasp this very basic and very important fact is difficult for me to comprehend to be honest. Indeed it these absurd accusations were correct then why would anyone want to come here? Either you are wrong or you think these people are stupid and/or suicidal?

We all know that people don't seriously think this is remotely comparable to Nazi Germany, but it's a handy and emotive tool to batter the government with whilst ignoring the real issues. People don't care that it will cause genuine concern for some vulnerable people. Whats a bit of scaremongering if you can play party politics eh?

The reality is that all policy areas in every government in every country and sometimes tightened up and sometimes liberalised, be that welfare, tax avoidance, speed limits or in this case the asylum system? Why? Because the system is being abused and isn't working.

By definition, the asylum process willy only ever involve foreign nationals. As such when this process is tightened (as is deemed necessary) it will require tough language that only applies to foreign nationals by definition.

As an example, when other parties talked of being 'tough on crime' this is also the same kind of thing the Nazis said, as they had a very illiberal approach to crime punishment. It doesn't mean being tough on crime here, in 2023 means we are becoming like the nazi state.

Honestly, these comparisons are so fkn disrespectful to the millions of genuine victims of fascism it beggars belief that people are so casual about making them.

Tell that to the holocaust survivor then, after all what does she know

[JamesWales]

Re: While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

Ninian, you (and Lineker) seem to be suggesting that we are akin to 1930s Germany. I am saying we aren't, but we actually are trying to fix a broken and abused system.

Some facts from 1930s Germany:

Adolf Hitler gained power in Jan 1933.

Dachau (the first concentration camp) opened in March 1933

An election took place in November 1933 in which the Nazis were the sole party and thus held every seat in the Reichstag.

Within 12 years tens of millions across the world were dead.

Now I am more than willing to put money towards any charity you choose that if we are currently in the equivalent of 1933 (as the analogy suggests - a powerful fascist govt abusing foreigners) that in the coming year we will NOT be opening concentration camps or suspending democracy and this will NOT lead to millions of deaths.

What do you reckon? Happy to take up the bet or do you think the analogy is a bit weak?

[Doucas]

Re: While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

Again, the stark difference here is that the Nazis repressed and then slaughtered Jews (and others). Jews were not paying thousands of pounds to enter Germany. That some people fail to grasp this very basic and very important fact is difficult for me to comprehend to be honest. Indeed it these absurd accusations were correct then why would anyone want to come here? Either you are wrong or you think these people are stupid and/or suicidal?

We all know that people don't seriously think this is remotely comparable to Nazi Germany, but it's a handy and emotive tool to batter the government with whilst ignoring the real issues. People don't care that it will cause genuine concern for some vulnerable people. Whats a bit of scaremongering if you can play party politics eh?

The reality is that all policy areas in every government in every country and sometimes tightened up and sometimes liberalised, be that welfare, tax avoidance, speed limits or in this case the asylum system? Why? Because the system is being abused and isn't working.

By definition, the asylum process willy only ever involve foreign nationals. As such when this process is tightened (as is deemed necessary) it will require tough language that only applies to foreign nationals by definition.

As an example, when other parties talked of being 'tough on crime' this is also the same kind of thing the Nazis said, as they had a very illiberal approach to crime punishment. It doesn't mean being tough on crime here, in 2023 means we are becoming like the nazi state.

Honestly, these comparisons are so fkn disrespectful to the millions of genuine victims of fascism it beggars belief that people are so casual about making them.

You've avoided the question, I asked you to be specific about the tweet and the list of fascist traits and you've diverted.

[JamesWales]

Re: While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

You've avoided the question, I asked you to be specific about the tweet and the list of fascist traits and you've diverted.

My apologies Doucas, I am just having a Chinese (food before you say anything!) and I'll have a look in a bit

[Feedback]

Re: While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

Maybe we could just start shooting the migrants and homeless for sport.

Thats got to be a vote winner

[Claude Blue]

Re: While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

Maybe we could just start shooting the migrants and homeless for sport.

Thats got to be a vote winner

Oh God, don't give them ideas.

[ninian opinian]

Re: While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

Ninian, you (and Lineker) seem to be suggesting that we are akin to 1930s Germany. I am saying we aren't, but we actually are trying to fix a broken and abused system.

Some facts from 1930s Germany:

Adolf Hitler gained power in Jan 1933.

Dachau (the first concentration camp) opened in March 1933

An election took place in November 1933 in which the Nazis were the sole party and thus held every seat in the Reichstag.

Within 12 years tens of millions across the world were dead.

Now I am more than willing to put money towards any charity you choose that if we are currently in the equivalent of 1933 (as the analogy suggests - a powerful fascist govt abusing foreigners) that in the coming year we will NOT be opening concentration camps or suspending democracy and this will NOT lead to millions of deaths.

What do you reckon? Happy to take up the bet or do you think the analogy is a bit weak?

Don’t be silly. We are talking about the language used to dehumanise fellow human beings. No one said anything like what you’ve posted above. It’s all in your head.

[JamesWales]

Re: While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

What exactly in the tweet is wrong? Be specific.

In this additional list of Fascist tendencies most can be applied to our current government.

If you disagree what on the list isn't a sign of Fascism? Or if you think the list if correct how aren't the tories doing the things on this list?

https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/...f-fascism.html

So having looked at this list, I would say..

1 / it's not very comprehensive, but then I guess it isn't necessarily designed to be. It misses off lots of important things that are far greater signs of fascism; control, disdain for democracy etc.

2 / what it lists doesn't just refer to fascist states or parties at all. It applies to pretty much any totalitarian or 29th century communist state. It's just a list of bad traits more than anything

3 / Of the 14 traits, I would say 12 bear absolutely no relationship with the current British Govt. Point one (on tradition) perhaps does but I don't know a political party that doesn't lean on tradition. Point 13, on the 'the voice of the people'. There's an argument this is true to some extent, but again, I think any party will do that, and if it's in reference to honouring a democratic vote (as in Brexit) I would say that is the very opposite of fascism.

So it's good news! We aren't about to turn into Nazi Germany. Phew!

[Eric Cartman]

Re: While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

Don’t be silly. We are talking about the language used to dehumanise fellow human beings. No one said anything like what you’ve posted above. It’s all in your head.

It does feel like a bit of a straw man at this point.

'James we are talking about the language used'

James - 'What do you mean concentration camps, we don't have any of those?!?!'

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

I genuinely think Rishi will look back on this period of time and realise he has sold himself out for nothing.

He's a stooge for the right wing of the conservative party

In America they would call him an uncle Tom

[Tito Fuente]

Re: While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

It does feel like a bit of a straw man at this point.

'James we are talking about the language used'

James - 'What do you mean concentration camps, we don't have any of those?!?!'

I was wondering if it was just me that was confused by the different arguments being made by posters.

I don't think ninian opinion's crusade was helpful though - since he was arguing with himself at one point about something that he was agreeing with.

[Tito Fuente]

Re: While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

It does feel like a bit of a straw man at this point.

'James we are talking about the language used'

James - 'What do you mean concentration camps, we don't have any of those?!?!'

I was wondering if it was just me that was confused by the different arguments being made by posters.

I don't think ninian opinion's crusade was helpful though - since he was arguing with himself at one point about something that he was actually agreeing with.

[JamesWales]

Re: While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

I was wondering if it was just me that was confused by the different arguments being made by posters.

I don't think ninian opinion's crusade was helpful though - since he was arguing with himself at one point about something that he was actually agreeing with.

Sounds like all of us at various points on this board!

[Tito Fuente]

Re: While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

Sounds like all of us at various points on this board!

Shut up, Tito!

[Organ Morgan.]

Re: While our eyes are on dingy crisis Rishi slips bill through the back door

It would be easy to empty detention centres and those hotels illegal immigrants occupy without going to the expense of sending them to Rwanda.

Actually, the solution would ensure they return from whence they came of their own volition as quickly as they can get themselves to Dover to hire dinghies and rowing boats to return them to Calais.

All that's required would be to spread a rumour that Midazolam Matt will visit them all unless they feck off sharpish.