Rochdale Relegated

[logic]

You sound like Thatcher

Survival of the fittest

The power of the market place

The consumer is king

Hey failing business! Don't worry about working out why you're failing, or trying to improve, we'll reward your failure!

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Hey failing business! Don't worry about working out why you're failing, or trying to improve, we'll reward your failure!

Here's another tory

Good god the place is swamped

Do you double up as a football agent

Sky Andrew

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The Prem teams and Prem has a whole have created the demand for televised matches. That has led to fans wanting to watch games on TV, which has brought in advertising revenue.

So yes, it's been earned.

I get you'd yearn for the old days of no Sky, BT Sports etc so basically only a top league game televised every now and then, always involving top six teams, with lower league teams not getting a look in other than via a cup run, but the world has moved on; lower leagues are getting more publicity than at any time before.

You are as daft as the other plum

You have swallowed the Premier league public relations bait hook , line and sinker

[Baloo]

I haven't said that. Maybe there's an opportunity for Cheltenham and Gloucester to merge, who knows. You seem to be happy with an underclass of teams who will never progress, maybe bounce around non-league/league two at best, maybe get a lucrative cup tie and that's about it.

Perhaps this seems more like an 'opportunity' when it's not your club involved. We may consider them an underclass but there are lots of historic clubs with a small, loyal, group of fans who may not wish to be foisted into bed with their local rivals in the name of progress. I'd certainly hope so.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Perhaps this seems more like an 'opportunity' when it's not your club involved. We may consider them an underclass but there are lots of historic clubs with a small, loyal, group of fans who may not wish to be foisted into bed with their local rivals in the name of progress. I'd certainly hope so.

We spent nearly 20 years in the lower leagues struggling

Plenty of modern football types would have seen us as ripe for merger with Newport

South Wales Seamen

If you like

[The Lone Gunman]

Perhaps this seems more like an 'opportunity' when it's not your club involved. We may consider them an underclass but there are lots of historic clubs with a small, loyal, group of fans who may not wish to be foisted into bed with their local rivals in the name of progress. I'd certainly hope so.

Quite. But the issue in this country is that clubs as far down as the fifth tier are fully professional - something that isn’t the case in any other country.

There is no problem at all with having five professional divisions if all the clubs within such a set-up are financially self-sufficient, but it’s obvious that in the English football pyramid they are not, nor even close.

There are those who apparently believe that all professional clubs in England and Wales should be financially supported by the elite clubs, but that’s clearly a nonsensical notion. It doesn’t happen anywhere else in the world, so why should it happen here?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

It's a nonsensical situation if you believe in the cold hard value of cash

There are loads of clubs in the Premier league who are pissing money away

And they have been doing that for many years

Do people think united , Liverpool, spurs , Chelsea etc are well run ?

Are we to assume it is the likes of Swindon Town who over spend to try and get higher in the football league are the only ones over reaching and living beyond their means ?

[logic]

Perhaps this seems more like an 'opportunity' when it's not your club involved. We may consider them an underclass but there are lots of historic clubs with a small, loyal, group of fans who may not wish to be foisted into bed with their local rivals in the name of progress. I'd certainly hope so.

Only one considering them an "underclass" is you, tbh as nobody has used that term other than you.

I get the tribalism of fans, I get from a fan perspective any change is bad but what on earth is the reality of being a Hartlepool fan? Overshadowed by Middlesboro, no chance of doing anything, maybe the faint hope a Hollywood C lister might be interested in a PR opportunity.

As TLG pointed out, no other nation has professional clubs as deep in their league structure as the UK does - most being geographically far larger nations.

That imo is one of the biggest reasons so many teams face financial issues, especially at lower levels. A lot of those clubs would be better off going semi-pro or full amateur to reduce the costs. Mergers could be another issues, potentially - especially at non-League level.

Ignoring problems don't make them go away.

[logic]

It's a nonsensical situation if you believe in the cold hard value of cash

There are loads of clubs in the Premier league who are pissing money away

And they have been doing that for many years

Do people think united , Liverpool, spurs , Chelsea etc are well run ?

Are we to assume it is the likes of Swindon Town who over spend to try and get higher in the football league are the only ones over reaching and living beyond their means ?

Do Swindon Town have the same income streams as Man Utd? Do they shift as much merchandise? No.

The big teams you mention have debts but those debs are serviceable debts - debt in itself isn't a bad thing. The issue is teams like Swindon lack the income to service debts and THAT is the difference in the examples you give that you fail to understand.

[Baloo]

Only one considering them an "underclass" is you, tbh as nobody has used that term other than you.

I get the tribalism of fans, I get from a fan perspective any change is bad but what on earth is the reality of being a Hartlepool fan? Overshadowed by Middlesboro, no chance of doing anything, maybe the faint hope a Hollywood C lister might be interested in a PR opportunity.

As TLG pointed out, no other nation has professional clubs as deep in their league structure as the UK does - most being geographically far larger nations.

That imo is one of the biggest reasons so many teams face financial issues, especially at lower levels. A lot of those clubs would be better off going semi-pro or full amateur to reduce the costs. Mergers could be another issues, potentially - especially at non-League level.

Ignoring problems don't make them go away.

I took the word underclass directly from one of your previous posts.

Quote Originally Posted by logic View Post
I haven't said that. Maybe there's an opportunity for Cheltenham and Gloucester to merge, who knows. You seem to be happy with an underclass of teams who will never progress, maybe bounce around non-league/league two at best, maybe get a lucrative cup tie and that's about it.

I watch dozens of non-league games each year. I think you underestimate the experience of their fans who follow their teams at great expense in lieu of watching bigger and more successful neighbours. They hope for progress of course but by definition it's not the be-all and end-all for them.

I understand the financial viability issues and don't know the answer to that tbh - but I just hope it doesn't involve obliterating half of them, or creating new hybrid clubs that disenfranchise the current fans in search of a broader, more fickle audience.

[logic]

I took the word underclass directly from one of your previous posts.

Quote Originally Posted by logic View Post
I haven't said that. Maybe there's an opportunity for Cheltenham and Gloucester to merge, who knows. You seem to be happy with an underclass of teams who will never progress, maybe bounce around non-league/league two at best, maybe get a lucrative cup tie and that's about it.

I watch dozens of non-league games each year. I think you underestimate the experience of their fans who follow their teams at great expense in lieu of watching bigger and more successful neighbours. They hope for progress of course but by definition it's not the be-all and end-all for them.

I understand the financial viability issues and don't know the answer to that tbh - but I just hope it doesn't involve obliterating half of them, or creating new hybrid clubs that disenfranchise the current fans in search of a broader, more fickle audience.

My bad.

At any level below Prem, there are X teams chasing the same pot of local money. It's either cut your cloth to what you have - which generally means staying same level - or spending more than you have.

I just think that, particularly at lower levels, there are a number of clubs that if merged, could create something great than the sum of their parts. The root problem, too many pro teams, has to be addressed.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

My bad.

At any level below Prem, there are X teams chasing the same pot of local money. It's either cut your cloth to what you have - which generally means staying same level - or spending more than you have.

I just think that, particularly at lower levels, there are a number of clubs that if merged, could create something great than the sum of their parts. The root problem, too many pro teams, has to be addressed.

You are a CCFC fan

We could insert Bristol , Swansea , etc in here and suggest a merge

It would give a huge population base to draw from

It's not that far removed from Exeter and Torquay or Darlington and Hartlepool joining up

I am all for progress but mine is to abolish the Royal family and the house of Lords

[Baloo]

I just think that, particularly at lower levels, there are a number of clubs that if merged, could create something great than the sum of their parts.

I see what you're getting at but I'm just not really sure if that's an overly blunt and simplistic solution to the problem. With some exceptions, at the lower league/non-league level through a merger you're mostly making small clubs marginally less small and at the same time risking the loyalty of the fanbases these clubs have managed to nurture and hold onto and which they rely upon. So there's possibly a risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

E.g. merge Cheltenham and Gloucester City as suggested earlier and you ultimately still have a small club (combined support currently c. 5000 per week) but one that, at best, existing fans of both clubs are unlikely to have the same emotional connection with and therefore loyalty to and, at worst, one they now despise. And a club that's still not really big and exciting enough to suddenly send the pulses racing of the more fickle locals who don't currently attend games.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I see what you're getting at but I'm just not really sure if that's an overly blunt and simplistic solution to the problem. With some exceptions, at the lower league/non-league level through a merger you're mostly making small clubs marginally less small and at the same time risking the loyalty of the fanbases these clubs have managed to nurture and hold onto and which they rely upon. So there's possibly a risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

E.g. merge Cheltenham and Gloucester City as suggested earlier and you ultimately still have a small club (combined support currently c. 5000 per week) but one that, at best, existing fans of both clubs are unlikely to have the same emotional connection with and therefore loyalty to and, at worst, one they now despise. And a club that's still not really big and exciting enough to suddenly send the pulses racing of the more fickle locals who don't currently attend games.

Part time football could be a consideration but mergers seems insane given that the rich clubs could easily afford a cash float to provide a safety net of sort

Why are people opposed to this ?

Has Thatcher wrecked everyone's morals ?

We have a nhs , social services

All sport surely deserves a buffer given the joy and sense of community it can provide

I wouldn't give Swansea anything at all though

[The Lone Gunman]

I watch dozens of non-league games each year. I think you underestimate the experience of their fans who follow their teams at great expense in lieu of watching bigger and more successful neighbours. They hope for progress of course but by definition it's not the be-all and end-all for them.

I understand the financial viability issues and don't know the answer to that tbh - but I just hope it doesn't involve obliterating half of them, or creating new hybrid clubs that disenfranchise the current fans in search of a broader, more fickle audience.

Personally, I don't think there is any need to even consider mergers or anything similar. However, it's clear that the way professional football operates in financial terms in this country is ludicrous, especially when you look at other countries. Players' wages at all levels of the game here are totally out of proportion to their levels of ability, and that is clearly the main reason why so many clubs struggle so badly in terms of finances. Right the way throughout the English pyramid, clubs are paying players far more than they're actually worth. Although they don't earn anywhere near enough income to justify their wage bills, most clubs carry on paying wages they can't afford regardless.

I don't believe anything remotely similar happens in other countries' lower divisions, or at least not on the scale it happens here, but throughout the English pyramid we accept it as the norm. The more you think about it, the crazier it is.

[TWGL1]

Personally, I don't think there is any need to even consider mergers or anything similar. However, it's clear that the way professional football operates in financial terms in this country is ludicrous, especially when you look at other countries. Players' wages at all levels of the game here are totally out of proportion to their levels of ability, and that is clearly the main reason why so many clubs struggle so badly in terms of finances. Right the way throughout the English pyramid, clubs are paying players far more than they're actually worth. Although they don't earn anywhere near enough income to justify their wage bills, most clubs carry on paying wages they can't afford regardless.

I don't believe anything remotely similar happens in other countries' lower divisions, or at least not on the scale it happens here, but throughout the English pyramid we accept it as the norm. The more you think about it, the crazier it is.

Yet if Cardiff City’s board don’t spend money on wages and transfers , they get accused of fleecing the club and have no ambition.

[Tuerto]

Spoken like a true capitalist

No distribution of wealth in your world

Says the man who wants Labour and Liberals to join forces in order to form a Centrist party, which means right wing, and ****s the political landscape in this country even further, The bloke you disliked (Corbyn) Promoted distribution of wealth. You're all over the shop, no composure or touch, You'd have been subbed after 20 minutes in this thread

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Yet if Cardiff City’s board don’t spend money on wages and transfers , they get accused of fleecing the club and have no ambition.

And therein lies the rub

If we have to cut our cloth for a few years we are going to end up in league one

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Says the man who wants Labour and Liberals to join forces in order to form a Centrist party, which means right wing, and ****s the political landscape in this country even further, The bloke you disliked (Corbyn) Promoted distribution of wealth. You're all over the shop, no composure or touch, You'd have been subbed after 20 minutes in this thread

Well you keep hoping for a left wing society whereas the rest of us realists deal with something more achievable sonny

[TWGL1]

100 percent true

You even said I was a good sport when I didn't respond

You want to pm me then do so , I am busy working cash in hand

Cash in hand - pay your taxes, two faced skank

[NYCBlue]

A trickle down of cash has until 1993 always happened in football

Clubs may have rivals but the football league is exactly that ....a league , a group , a union

The usual suspects will be happy watching 3 or 4 clubs as long as its on sky

Those 3 or 4 clubs are the reason people subscribe to sports packages. I've seen plenty of 4th Division football in my time. And I pay to watch every city game. But when I turn on the TV on a Sunday morning I want to be entertained. By the best football on offer.

[The Lone Gunman]

Yet if Cardiff City’s board don’t spend money on wages and transfers , they get accused of fleecing the club and have no ambition.

Not by me. This lot haven’t been fleecing the club, that’s not even possible at present, but the way they’ve been running the club should be a concern to any fan. As for ambition, who knows if they retain any? We have a small board and they don’t appear to have been singing from the same hymn sheet in recent times.

City are a great example of what I was talking about earlier. Apparently, the club lost something like £29 million last season while finishing 18th in the Championship. Insanity.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Cash in hand - pay your taxes, two faced skank

I was taking the piss

[Tuerto]

Well you keep hoping for a left wing society whereas the rest of us realists deal with something more achievable sonny

And there's you wanting the big 6 to share money with lower league clubs, and you call yourself a realist? Can't you see the irony of what you are saying if you're laying it on me for wanting more fairness politically and socially?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Those 3 or 4 clubs are the reason people subscribe to sports packages. I've seen plenty of 4th Division football in my time. And I pay to watch every city game. But when I turn on the TV on a Sunday morning I want to be entertained. By the best football on offer.

Well the fact you are paying these diving overpaid tarts doesn't give it any legitimacy and doesn't make the whole thing acceptable for many people

I would like to see the whole edifice collapse and we start again