+ Visit Cardiff FC for Latest News, Transfer Gossip, Fixtures and Match Results
Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 106

Thread: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

  1. #1

    Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Over to you....

  2. #2

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Public transport is abysmal in this country. When you look at some of the transport projects happening across the globe it’s embarrassing how shit we’re doing.

    The Paris Metro expansion is seeing ~150 miles of new track being laid, 4 whole new lines added, 2 being extended and 68 new stations built. All of it expected to be completed by 2030.

    India a currently in the process of crisscrossing the country with tracks to be used by the Shinkansen bullet trains with the plan to have all their major cities linked by 2040.

    China have built 26,000 miles of high speed rail since 2007. With a further 19,000 miles planned for 2035.

    I wonder how many of the 140 miles of HS2 will be done by 2035?

  3. #3
    International jon1959's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Sheffield - out of Roath
    Posts
    16,847

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    There have been recent threads on the disaster of water privatisation - private profit, public debt, leaks and waste, and shit in the rivers.

    But my top privatisation crime is the bus system. Apologies for the Guardian link (and it is a couple of years old) but this piece neatly summarises the mess that has been created:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...private-market

    https://chrgj.org/2021/07/19/press-r...nited-kingdom/

    Almost four decades ago, Margaret Thatcher’s government boldly predicted that privatising Britain’s bus sector would lead to “lower fares, new services, and more passengers”, while removing “any potential future liability on the taxpayer”.

    Today, those claims seem farcical, with much of the bus sector in crisis. Private operators have profited handsomely, but passengers dependent on buses to get to work, access services and visit loved ones have suffered greatly. Taxpayers are subsidising corporate profits, while companies run a service so confusing and ineffective that riders have abandoned it in droves, undermining efforts to reduce greenhouse emissions.


    London’s relatively well-run and highly regulated system is, in fact, an outlier in Britain. In the rest of England, Scotland and Wales, Thatcher’s extreme form of privatisation and deregulation largely prohibited municipal services and left it to private operators to decide which routes to run and how much to charge.

    This arrangement, which is almost unique among wealthy nations, has delivered an expensive, unreliable and dysfunctional service. In England alone, more than 3,000 local-authority-supported routes have been cut or reduced in the past two decades, fares are up 403% since 1987 and ridership plummeted by 38% outside London between 1982 and 2016-17. Bus services are fragmented, with multiple operators running uncoordinated routes, each with their own tickets, schedules and maps. And passengers complain of unreliable service and poor coverage.

    The privatised system has also proven remarkably expensive. Unlike public operators, which reinvest profits in service and cross-subsidise unprofitable routes, private companies extract profits as shareholder dividends. Meanwhile, the public is still on the hook. Taxpayer money accounts for 42% of funding for bus services in England outside London....

  4. #4
    First Team Heathblue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Melmac, Aldente Nebula, Andromeda Galaxy
    Posts
    4,892

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Been basically pony under public and private ownership, IMO it's gotten worse and worse under the current gangsters at No.10, also, and having worked on the Hinkley power station project for the last 6 years, capital equipment projects are becoming ridiculously difficult to complete, like other projects Hinckley went through the C19 stuff but the 3 year nonsense will translate into something like a 5-7 year delay before it's commissioned, the similar plant in France has yet to be commissioned!!!. CARDIFF metro system, don't make me laugh 😆 😂 😄 🤣 😅
    There has to be a mind set change from the public way before worrying about public or private ownership.

  5. #5

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Privatization of infrastructure and utilities has been an absolute disaster IMO.

    I may be a bit naive and don’t know the numbers but Labour should be pushing nationalization of rail and utilities.
    Make it affordable and put the profits into the country.

    Is it feasible or folly?

  6. #6

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue View Post
    Privatization of infrastructure and utilities has been an absolute disaster IMO.

    I may be a bit naive and don’t know the numbers but Labour should be pushing nationalization of rail and utilities.
    Make it affordable and put the profits into the country.

    Is it feasible or folly?
    Labour are too scared to do anything like that even though they should. They really are just letting this useless govt hang themselves.

    Labour arent going to win the election the Tories (rightly as they are an utter joke) are going to lose it. Labour will steer well away from anything seen as controversial.

  7. #7
    pipster
    Guest

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Rubbish before and rubbish afterwards
    Should follow the Welsh water model instead
    Not for profit core with some services contracted out

  8. #8

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Thatcher and her privatisation nonsense will never be overturned

    But it freaking well should be

  9. #9

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilts View Post
    Labour are too scared to do anything like that even though they should. They really are just letting this useless govt hang themselves.

    Labour arent going to win the election the Tories (rightly as they are an utter joke) are going to lose it. Labour will steer well away from anything seen as controversial.
    It wouldn't surprise me either if labour under starmer don't win the election

  10. #10

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    It wouldn't surprise me either if labour under starmer don't win the election
    If they dont we may as well give up. You will always get those who will always vote for anyone in a blue rosette. However I dont think there are enough thickos to vote Tory this time round.

    If Labour are only 5% up in the polls though the Tories will win. A significant amount of Tories are rightly embarrassed to be Tories and wont admit they are voting for them.

  11. #11

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilts View Post
    If they dont we may as well give up. You will always get those who will always vote for anyone in a blue rosette. However I dont think there are enough thickos to vote Tory this time round.

    If Labour are only 5% up in the polls though the Tories will win. A significant amount of Tories are rightly embarrassed to be Tories and wont admit they are voting for them.
    If the country votes in the tories then I am done with mainstream politics and certainly done with Labour as any sort of alternative

    I will vote green

    I can't believe Starmer is backed up by Angela Raynor and Rachel Reeves they are as hopeless as he is

  12. #12

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilts View Post
    If they dont we may as well give up. You will always get those who will always vote for anyone in a blue rosette. However I dont think there are enough thickos to vote Tory this time round.

    If Labour are only 5% up in the polls though the Tories will win. A significant amount of Tories are rightly embarrassed to be Tories and wont admit they are voting for them.
    Well I certainly won’t be. I have voted this way in the past…

    1992 - Conservative (John Major v Kinnock)
    1997 - New Labour (Blair v John Major)
    2001 - Plaid Cymru (Ieuan Wyn Jones - best leader ever in my view for PC)
    2005 - Conservative (Blair v Michael Howard)
    2010 - Conservative (Cameron v Gormless Clown)
    2015 - Conservative (Cameron v Ed Miliband)
    2017 - Conservative (May v Corbyn)
    2019 - Conservative (Johnson v Corbyn)

    This time I will certainly not be voting for Conservatives nor Labour, with private equity backing both parties we can continue to look at the ugliest element of capitalism calling the shots on public policy: good companies all over the place being loaded up with debt and put in trouble. After all that is the operating model of private equity and I hate it.

    This time I suspect I will be looking at abstention, or Plaid Cymru - with Welsh affairs being my main consideration and reducing the destructive monopoly of low-IQ, low-performance socialist Welsh Labour in Wales.

  13. #13

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    There have been recent threads on the disaster of water privatisation - private profit, public debt, leaks and waste, and shit in the rivers.

    But my top privatisation crime is the bus system. Apologies for the Guardian link (and it is a couple of years old) but this piece neatly summarises the mess that has been created:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...private-market

    https://chrgj.org/2021/07/19/press-r...nited-kingdom/

    Almost four decades ago, Margaret Thatcher’s government boldly predicted that privatising Britain’s bus sector would lead to “lower fares, new services, and more passengers”, while removing “any potential future liability on the taxpayer”.

    Today, those claims seem farcical, with much of the bus sector in crisis. Private operators have profited handsomely, but passengers dependent on buses to get to work, access services and visit loved ones have suffered greatly. Taxpayers are subsidising corporate profits, while companies run a service so confusing and ineffective that riders have abandoned it in droves, undermining efforts to reduce greenhouse emissions.


    London’s relatively well-run and highly regulated system is, in fact, an outlier in Britain. In the rest of England, Scotland and Wales, Thatcher’s extreme form of privatisation and deregulation largely prohibited municipal services and left it to private operators to decide which routes to run and how much to charge.

    This arrangement, which is almost unique among wealthy nations, has delivered an expensive, unreliable and dysfunctional service. In England alone, more than 3,000 local-authority-supported routes have been cut or reduced in the past two decades, fares are up 403% since 1987 and ridership plummeted by 38% outside London between 1982 and 2016-17. Bus services are fragmented, with multiple operators running uncoordinated routes, each with their own tickets, schedules and maps. And passengers complain of unreliable service and poor coverage.

    The privatised system has also proven remarkably expensive. Unlike public operators, which reinvest profits in service and cross-subsidise unprofitable routes, private companies extract profits as shareholder dividends. Meanwhile, the public is still on the hook. Taxpayer money accounts for 42% of funding for bus services in England outside London....
    Buses were shit prior to privatization. Services were shit after. I’d say the model suggests that public ownership should apply there.

    Utilities? BT, electric and gas have been superb. The old gas board, water board, electric board and the telecomms were absolute garbage and service was awful. Under Hyder Utilities, Welsh Water was also good. In my view it wasn’t private ownership that failed here, and the huge success of Hyder under Graham Hawker was testimony it could be done. Two things here, which The Guardian has conveniently chosent to forget:

    1. Gordon Brown introduced a massive windfall tax on water companies around 2000 which murdered their capital base. This is what architected the downfall of a Hyder, let to its break-up and capital destruction. Until that moment, Welsh utilities were both the darling of the UK stock narket and were investing heavily. Thanks Gordon, you useless prick. That cause a loss of 5,000 jobs in Cardiff at a stroke of a pen. I know - I worked there.

    2. Things recovered after the Bove carnage, but never back to what they were. After the dotcom crash interest rates dropped and private equity started creeping in. So privatisation had worked initially - lower bills, competition and better service. All of this was confirmed by statistics released by the respective regulators. New Labour had all the power at their disposal in a decade of power to enshrine in law the debt floors to restrict private equity’s LBO / leverage models. Australia did it. Britain did not. Ironically Macquarie, the Aussie private equity firm, shackled by the Aussie government in the utilities sector, came to the UK and bought up UK utilities where they were loaded to the max with debt, and many now in trouble. In addition, the governent could control dividend payout ratios, or apply
    minimum capiral investment ratios in the water industries. Labour turned a blind eye and did nothing. But then again, neither did Cameron, May norJohnson.

    So this wasn’t a Thatcher issue at all, as the Thatcher-haters love to think, the twisted bunch. Up until Labour’s windfall tax, private utilities were making a profit, lowering costs, re-investing capital, and improving service. Everyone was a winner. The sequenceof events to downfall were:

    1. Brown’s windfall tax hammered utiltiies

    2. Short of capital, private equity offered the chance to improve shareholder returns by using debt / leverage to pay dividends, but stripping capital investments

    3. New Labour, then successive post-2010 Conservative governments failed to head the warnings on private equity, and instead of imposing suitable regulatory controls allowed them to get away with financial engineering

    4. By joining the EU Lisbon Treaty in 2005, it was enshrined in law that British companies can take the UK government to court if they interfere in private markets. For this reason, this is why Corbyn was not in favour of the EU, as he would have liked to nationalise some orivate companies. But it prevented any further interference in nauseous private equity behaviours in the utility sector.

    5. Lo an behold, private equity companies get asset stripped, cannot invest and are now in trouble

    None of the above happened on Thatcher / Major’s watch. But it will continue, because if anyone can be bothered to look, private equity are funding both Labour and Conservatives at the moment. Until these vipers are kicked out, expect more of the same. If you want to see where private ownership isn’t the problem in water sector, look at Scottish Water, Welsh water and there is another one I cannot recall where orivate equity isn’t involved - they are ticking along just fine.

    So take the public v private argument away - it is so dogmatic, political, tribal and predictable. There are cases where it works, and where it doesn’t. And there are various private models that work and others that don’t, and those private models vary: not for profit, privately owned, public markets, private-equity LBO model. You will not find those answers in the political Independent, Guardian or Telegraph, who will always vouch for the political extremes.

    Try and be more detached and analytical. It will aid better understanding than some of the hot headed, name-calling bullshit we see on here quite often. But I guess that depends on whether the opening post’s question was to stir the pot among political posters, or a genuine attenpt to understand how the industry works and what went wrong.

  14. #14
    International jon1959's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Sheffield - out of Roath
    Posts
    16,847

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Soze View Post
    Buses were shit prior to privatization.
    Absolute bollocks!

  15. #15

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    The problem with most of the privatisations in this country, is there wasn't any thought given to how it would make anything better for the consumer beyond "the free market is best".
    A significant proportion of tory MPs back when we were selling everything off, and even more so now don't seem to have any understanding WHY the free market CAN sometimes be better than a state run monopoly, they just have a dogmatic view that it is always better, so they didnt make sure the conditions were in place for it to actually work.

    If you are in something approaching a perfect market then free market is almost always best - however with many of the utilities it is very far removed from a perfect market - there is basically no day to day competition so the market forces do not force efficiency.
    If I get a train there is only one operator, if I turn on the tap the same water comes out of it and there is the same electricity and gas coming to my house regardless of the supplier.

    The competition we have in the electricity market only applies to the part which measures how much energy you use and sends you a bill for it, it is a tiny fraction of the overall picture.

    Any such industries should be looked at again and if genuine competition cannot be created then they should be returned to the state.

    Water companies have paid themselves artificially high dividends for years by ignoring their legal requirements to our rivers, now they want to charge the taxpayers even more to fix the problem they should have been fixing all along. We should compulsory purchase these water companies back to the state - subtracting any money from the price that they should have invested in infrastructure over the years but instead chose to pay as dividends.

  16. #16

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    I don’t see how the free market can run services like trains when their main focus is on dividends for shareholders.

    The train services are appalling with ram packed packed carriages and extortionate prices.
    How is it feasible that flights are cheaper than the train for some domestic travel?

    The busses are the worst I have ever seen.
    When I get back to Newport, it is impossible to get a reliable bus service…you seldom see any on the roads.
    I have to rely on taxis to get about when I’m home.

  17. #17
    International jon1959's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Sheffield - out of Roath
    Posts
    16,847

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue View Post
    I don’t see how the free market can run services like trains when their main focus is on dividends for shareholders.

    The train services are appalling with ram packed packed carriages and extortionate prices.
    How is it feasible that flights are cheaper than the train for some domestic travel?

    The busses are the worst I have ever seen.
    When I get back to Newport, it is impossible to get a reliable bus service…you seldom see any on the roads.
    I have to rely on taxis to get about when I’m home.

    Spot on.

  18. #18

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    Absolute bollocks!
    Indeed , complete bullshit

  19. #19

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Soze View Post
    Well I certainly won’t be. I have voted this way in the past…

    1992 - Conservative (John Major v Kinnock)
    1997 - New Labour (Blair v John Major)
    2001 - Plaid Cymru (Ieuan Wyn Jones - best leader ever in my view for PC)
    2005 - Conservative (Blair v Michael Howard)
    2010 - Conservative (Cameron v Gormless Clown)
    2015 - Conservative (Cameron v Ed Miliband)
    2017 - Conservative (May v Corbyn)
    2019 - Conservative (Johnson v Corbyn)

    This time I will certainly not be voting for Conservatives nor Labour, with private equity backing both parties we can continue to look at the ugliest element of capitalism calling the shots on public policy: good companies all over the place being loaded up with debt and put in trouble. After all that is the operating model of private equity and I hate it.

    This time I suspect I will be looking at abstention, or Plaid Cymru - with Welsh affairs being my main consideration and reducing the destructive monopoly of low-IQ, low-performance socialist Welsh Labour in Wales.
    So you are a tory then

    What a surprise

    Naff off

  20. #20

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Soze View Post
    Well I certainly won’t be. I have voted this way in the past…

    1992 - Conservative (John Major v Kinnock)
    1997 - New Labour (Blair v John Major)
    2001 - Plaid Cymru (Ieuan Wyn Jones - best leader ever in my view for PC)
    2005 - Conservative (Blair v Michael Howard)
    2010 - Conservative (Cameron v Gormless Clown)
    2015 - Conservative (Cameron v Ed Miliband)
    2017 - Conservative (May v Corbyn)
    2019 - Conservative (Johnson v Corbyn)

    This time I will certainly not be voting for Conservatives nor Labour, with private equity backing both parties we can continue to look at the ugliest element of capitalism calling the shots on public policy: good companies all over the place being loaded up with debt and put in trouble. After all that is the operating model of private equity and I hate it.

    This time I suspect I will be looking at abstention, or Plaid Cymru - with Welsh affairs being my main consideration and reducing the destructive monopoly of low-IQ, low-performance socialist Welsh Labour in Wales.
    So you vote for a capitalist monopoly .....the Tories , who have screwed up the lives of so many over the years



    Yet deride the Welsh Labour government which despite its clear failings most of us support

    You complete self obsessed idiot

  21. #21

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    So you vote for a capitalist monopoly .....the Tories , who have screwed up the lives of so many over the years



    Yet deride the Welsh Labour government which despite its clear failings most of us support

    You complete self obsessed idiot
    Oh dear. Did someone come off the meds this morning? You seem to be unemotive and out of control more and more as you get older. I think perhaps daddy forgot to explain to you that it is a democracy here sunbeam, not Cuba.As much as it seems you adore the idea if a one party state. You clearly don’t like debate or alternative options.

    I’ll give a Vlad and Raul Castro a call - they’d love your support I’m sure

  22. #22

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Soze View Post
    Well I certainly won’t be. I have voted this way in the past…

    1992 - Conservative (John Major v Kinnock)
    1997 - New Labour (Blair v John Major)
    2001 - Plaid Cymru (Ieuan Wyn Jones - best leader ever in my view for PC)
    2005 - Conservative (Blair v Michael Howard)
    2010 - Conservative (Cameron v Gormless Clown)
    2015 - Conservative (Cameron v Ed Miliband)
    2017 - Conservative (May v Corbyn)
    2019 - Conservative (Johnson v Corbyn)

    This time I will certainly not be voting for Conservatives nor Labour, with private equity backing both parties we can continue to look at the ugliest element of capitalism calling the shots on public policy: good companies all over the place being loaded up with debt and put in trouble. After all that is the operating model of private equity and I hate it.

    This time I suspect I will be looking at abstention, or Plaid Cymru - with Welsh affairs being my main consideration and reducing the destructive monopoly of low-IQ, low-performance socialist Welsh Labour in Wales.
    2010 was the year of the Clegg! how could anyone vote for anyone else then!!

  23. #23

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Soze View Post
    Oh dear. Did someone come off the meds this morning? You seem to be unemotive and out of control more and more as you get older. I think perhaps daddy forgot to explain to you that it is a democracy here sunbeam, not Cuba.As much as it seems you adore the idea if a one party state. You clearly don’t like debate or alternative options.

    I’ll give a Vlad and Raul Castro a call - they’d love your support I’m sure
    Blah Blah , listen to me I have been to university

  24. #24

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoose View Post
    2010 was the year of the Clegg! how could anyone vote for anyone else then!!
    If someone voted for clegg then they were let down but at least it showed they were human

    People who voted tory ......line em up , bulldozer

  25. #25

    Re: Today's topic - privatising public transport and our utilities have benefitted the general public

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    If someone voted for clegg then they were let down but at least it showed they were human

    People who voted tory ......line em up , bulldozer

    tolerant left speaks again

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •