"From the river to the sea" chant

[Jordi Culé]

Re: "From the river to the sea" chant

I think the issue Jordi is that there has been a massive rise in antisemitism, little Jewish kids schools in London daubed in blood, some windows snashed, arrests for racism and mass chanting on the streets calling for something that many call racist.

I've never ever defended what Israel do. It's not me defending that, and there is another thread on that

The war itself is of course more abhorrent. But this kind of rhetoric as well as bringing racial discord to the UK and making some fear walking the streets is only likely to prolong that. It doesn't promote nor make the two state solution any easier.

I think this is about some pretty disturbing events and opinions latching onto a legitimate peace movement that helps absolutely no one and I think it should be called out for what it is, without turning a blind eye.

You were more angry about the Rubiales kiss than people chanting racist slogans on the street. Fancy that.

Wowser! *laughing*

That's going off at a tangent buddy.

I can see what you're getting at though as you're floundering in this discussion as you were in that one due to induced myopia caused by having your head stuck up your own arse and being unable to see other people's perspectives or indeed feelings.

Back to today's discussion though, Pro Palestinian supporters in London, England are more of an obstacle to peace in Gaza than the Israeli state/ Likud Party who are currently bombing it to absolute bits and it's the Pro Palestinian supporters shouting slogans that are disturbing your ever so genteel sensibilities the most?

You're correct that anti semitic incidents reported have gone up, you should point out so have reports of islamophobia. Interestingly, islamophobic reports were higher than anti semitic crimes reported prior to Hamas attacks in Israel.

You know that though.

Have I missed anything?

[Heathblue]

Re: "From the river to the sea" chant

No comment on the chant I had no idea what it is/meant until reading this Fred, the biggest disappointment for me is the almost total lack of interest in looking for a peaceful solution, from any of the main players, yes it's been going on since day dot but if your not talking, peace is impossible, my 1st memory of this conflict I think is the Munich Olympics and without googling I'm reasonably sure it's related?. Whilst knowing about the 6 day war I cannot remember it on TV.

[JamesWales]

Re: "From the river to the sea" chant

Of course I read it. Did you think it was written by AI?

I dispute your description of racism. You don't get to be Judge, Jury and Executioner you know.

But I've provided links to various organisations that DO consider it racist and it is they who matter here. Its not really for you to tell someone it isn't racist if they are saying it is, and the wording, whilst as ever is a grey area is pretty dodgy.

There are ways to call for peace or support Palestine without using slogans and chants that many consider racist so when that doesn't happen, I think it should be called out. Aside from anything it doesn't calm the situation or make peace anymore likely, as I've said, if anything its the exact opposite.

So probably racist, probably xenophobic, definitely unpleasant, likely to make people fearful, and highly unlikely to help the cause of peace.
So why support it?!

[JamesWales]

Re: "From the river to the sea" chant

Wowser! *laughing*

That's going off at a tangent buddy.

I can see what you're getting at though as you're floundering in this discussion as you were in that one due to induced myopia caused by having your head stuck up your own arse and being unable to see other people's perspectives or indeed feelings.

Back to today's discussion though, Pro Palestinian supporters in London, England are more of an obstacle to peace in Gaza than the Israeli state/ Likud Party who are currently bombing it to absolute bits and it's the Pro Palestinian supporters shouting slogans that are disturbing your ever so genteel sensibilities the most?

You're correct that anti semitic incidents reported have gone up, you should point out so have reports of islamophobia. Interestingly, islamophobic reports were higher than anti semitic crimes reported prior to Hamas attacks in Israel.

You know that though.

Have I missed anything?

I did point that out
I have said I don't support what Israel is doing
You can't really accuse others of tangents when you take a criticism of racist chanting and use it to mean I support Zionism. If I object to someone being called a 'p***' that doesn't mean I support the Pakistani govt either..get it?!

I just don't see why you don't call it out. Many Jewish people are telling you it's racist but you are like...nah it's okay..what do they know?

And again, aside from anything it's souring what is of course a very legitimate set of protests for peace

[Dorcus]

Re: "From the river to the sea" chant

But I've provided links to various organisations that DO consider it racist and it is they who matter here. Its not really for you to tell someone it isn't racist if they are saying it is, and the wording, whilst as ever is a grey area is pretty dodgy.

There are ways to call for peace or support Palestine without using slogans and chants that many consider racist so when that doesn't happen, I think it should be called out. Aside from anything it doesn't calm the situation or make peace anymore likely, as I've said, if anything its the exact opposite.

So probably racist, probably xenophobic, definitely unpleasant, likely to make people fearful, and highly unlikely to help the cause of peace.
So why support it?!

All on your opinion, not mine and whatever other groups think about it is of no concern to me. I will make my own mind up thank you.

Your continual deflecting only serves to confirm your greater concern for chants of freedom rather than outright slaughter of children and babies. It really doesn't show you up in a good light.

In any case I started another thread questioning the ethics of world governments not demanding a ceasefire. I note you haven't responded to that which leads me to assume that slaughter and genocide is not your main concern but rather the sensibilities of a few people put out by a chant for freedom.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: "From the river to the sea" chant

I think it's racist as it is interpreted by many Jews as wishing to see the end of the only Jewish state. And under hate crime legislation it is the victim who determines this.

I also think it's a deeply unhelpful chant, that aggravates the situation, takes peace further away and shows that for a minority of people, this isn't about peace or Palestine at all.

It doesn't really surprise me that the usual suspects are okay with it - the same people who seemed to support a certain ex party leader, surprise surprise!

The anti defamation league state here they consider it antisemitic

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/allegation-river-sea-palestine-will-be-free

The American Jewish committee do too

https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/From-the-River-to-the-Sea

Austria even banned a march based on it

https://www.reuters.com/world/from-river-sea-prompts-vienna-ban-pro-palestinian-protest-2023-10-11/

Hate crimes rising enormously in the last week.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67241374

How hard is it to march for peace without chanting a chant that many consider racist? Not that hard, is it?

My view is that when it comes to language, intent should be the deciding factor.

I also think the 'race card' (for want of a better term) should be used sparingly if it is to be an effective way to call racists out.

Once we go down the path of 'my group doesn't like you saying this so I will call you racist', it's never going to end well. I think if we were talking about different groups here, you might be making a case from the other direction i.e. free speech.

[life on mars]

Re: "From the river to the sea" chant

https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/FOID/Reading%20Room/Joint_Staff/13-F-0117_DOC_07-course-materials-perspectives-on-Islam_and_Islamic_radicalism.pdf

https://theconversation.com/antisemitism-how-the-origins-of-historys-oldest-hatred-still-hold-sway-today-87878

[life on mars]

Re: "From the river to the sea" chant

I think it's racist as it is interpreted by many Jews as wishing to see the end of the only Jewish state. And under hate crime legislation it is the victim who determines this.

I also think it's a deeply unhelpful chant, that aggravates the situation, takes peace further away and shows that for a minority of people, this isn't about peace or Palestine at all.

It doesn't really surprise me that the usual suspects are okay with it - the same people who seemed to support a certain ex party leader, surprise surprise!

The anti defamation league state here they consider it antisemitic

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/allegation-river-sea-palestine-will-be-free

The American Jewish committee do too

https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/From-the-River-to-the-Sea

Austria even banned a march based on it

https://www.reuters.com/world/from-river-sea-prompts-vienna-ban-pro-palestinian-protest-2023-10-11/

Hate crimes rising enormously in the last week.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67241374

How hard is it to march for peace without chanting a chant that many consider racist? Not that hard, is it?

Easy just chant peace please two states please , nah lets chant hate , genocide views they should be arrested , they won't , it will be the poor drunk fecks reponding with the v's .

OSAMA BIN LADEN :
Concerning suicidal terrorism, said: “A suicide bombing is the highest level of jihad, and highlights the depth of our faith. The bombers are holy fighters ...

Jihad is shouted at all these events including Saturdays fluffy march , so we allow jihad to be used knowing that folk have died in Manchester Area , and 7/7 ,for those very thoughts and acts .

Just ask your self if a 100 or so of us went to an islamic country and shouted anti muslims chants ,would we be alive today ??

By the way these very muslim activists and countries have scant regard for gays' christians, women ,educating girls in schools , demonstrations , christian churches ,all those people listed are persecuted by the countries these very demonstrators align themselves too , the left loops are loops , bet though half of them, only want the muslim votes and woudl be appalled how poorly the religion treats ' christians, women , educating young girls , demonstrators , christian churches( mostly burned and butchered now ) oh and no democracies .

Where is the caring left when it comes to demonstrating against those awful countries and out dated religions.

We have bent too far to accommodate , in the hope muslim countries could respond the same and provide tolerance of other faiths,beliefs , behaviours and freedom of choice of who or what to be .

The funniest banner on Saturday was the LGBTQ ones , hypocrisy at its best ........... as Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights in Israel are considered the most developed in the Middle East.

[Jordi Culé]

Re: "From the river to the sea" chant

Easy just chant peace please two states please , nah lets chant hate , genocide views they should be arrested , they won't , it will be the poor drunk fecks reponding with the v's .

OSAMA BIN LADEN :
Concerning suicidal terrorism, said: “A suicide bombing is the highest level of jihad, and highlights the depth of our faith. The bombers are holy fighters ...

Jihad is shouted at all these events including Saturdays fluffy march , so we allow jihad to be used knowing that folk have died in Manchester Area , and 7/7 ,for those very thoughts and acts .

Just ask your self if a 100 or so of us went to an islamic country and shouted anti muslims chants ,would we be alive today ??

By the way these very muslim activists and countries have scant regard for gays' christians, women ,educating girls in schools , demonstrations , christian churches ,all those people listed are persecuted by the countries these very demonstrators align themselves too , the left loops are loops , bet though half of them, only want the muslim votes and woudl be appalled how poorly the religion treats ' christians, women , educating young girls , demonstrators , christian churches( mostly burned and butchered now ) oh and no democracies .

Where is the caring left when it comes to demonstrating against those awful countries and out dated religions.

We have bent too far to accommodate , in the hope muslim countries could respond the same and provide tolerance of other faiths,beliefs , behaviours and freedom of choice of who or what to be .

The funniest banner on Saturday was the LGBTQ ones , hypocrisy at its best ........... as Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights in Israel are considered the most developed in the Middle East.

Jesus Allah.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: "From the river to the sea" chant

Easy just chant peace please two states please , nah lets chant hate , genocide views they should be arrested , they won't , it will be the poor drunk fecks reponding with the v's .

OSAMA BIN LADEN :
Concerning suicidal terrorism, said: “A suicide bombing is the highest level of jihad, and highlights the depth of our faith. The bombers are holy fighters ...

Jihad is shouted at all these events including Saturdays fluffy march , so we allow jihad to be used knowing that folk have died in Manchester Area , and 7/7 ,for those very thoughts and acts .

Just ask your self if a 100 or so of us went to an islamic country and shouted anti muslims chants ,would we be alive today ??

By the way these very muslim activists and countries have scant regard for gays' christians, women ,educating girls in schools , demonstrations , christian churches ,all those people listed are persecuted by the countries these very demonstrators align themselves too , the left loops are loops , bet though half of them, only want the muslim votes and woudl be appalled how poorly the religion treats ' christians, women , educating young girls , demonstrators , christian churches( mostly burned and butchered now ) oh and no democracies .

Where is the caring left when it comes to demonstrating against those awful countries and out dated religions.

We have bent too far to accommodate , in the hope muslim countries could respond the same and provide tolerance of other faiths,beliefs , behaviours and freedom of choice of who or what to be .

The funniest banner on Saturday was the LGBTQ ones , hypocrisy at its best ........... as Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights in Israel are considered the most developed in the Middle East.

You sound more like you want the eradication of all Muslims than a two state solution.

[jon1959]

Re: "From the river to the sea" chant

Netanyahu presenting maps of Israel as one state from the Jordan River to the Sea at the UN in September - obliterating Palestine from the map.

natanyahus-maps-of-israel-1320x620.jpg

If you listen carefully you can still hear the Board of Deputies, the Jewish Leadership Council, the Anti Defamation League, the Community Security Trust, Suella Braverman, Life On Mars and JamesWales cheering.

Ethnic cleansing is so much better than peace and justice!

[JamesWales]

Re: "From the river to the sea" chant

My view is that when it comes to language, intent should be the deciding factor.

I also think the 'race card' (for want of a better term) should be used sparingly if it is to be an effective way to call racists out.

Once we go down the path of 'my group doesn't like you saying this so I will call you racist', it's never going to end well. I think if we were talking about different groups here, you might be making a case from the other direction i.e. free speech.

I agree. Intent and context matters. Without which satire wouldn't exist and it is of course different whether a child carries a sign or a grown adult etc.

But I don't think we can ignore this on those grounds. We know we have a serious issue with Islamism in the UK. We know there have been arrests (A tiny minority) and videos of people calling for Jihad. We know that antisemitism has soared in the last week and we know that many Jews consider it racist and we know it will not help bring about peace.

So with that in mind, why do we tolerate it?

If there was a chant that many but not all Muslims found racist would it be cool for us to go around chanting it on the streets? I'd suggest not.

Just seen Ben Jamal from Palestine Solidarity Campaign on Channel 4 News being heavily quizzed by Krishnan Guru-Murty. He couldn't confirm Israel's right to exist despite asked several times.

This chant should get in the bin.

[JamesWales]

Re: "From the river to the sea" chant

Netanyahu presenting maps of Israel as one state from the Jordan River to the Sea at the UN in September - obliterating Palestine from the map.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5885[/ATTACH]

If you listen carefully you can still hear the Board of Deputies, the Jewish Leadership Council, the Anti Defamation League, the Community Security Trust, Suella Braverman, Life On Mars and JamesWales cheering.

Ethnic cleansing is so much better than peace and justice!

I think you are confused Jon. I am the one objecting to the chant. I'm saying it's not okay, irrespective of who says it.

It's you that seems to think it's okay.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: "From the river to the sea" chant

I agree. Intent and context matters. Without which satire wouldn't exist and it is of course different whether a child carries a sign or a grown adult etc.

But I don't think we can ignore this on those grounds. We know we have a serious issue with Islamism in the UK. We know there have been arrests (A tiny minority) and videos of people calling for Jihad. We know that antisemitism has soared in the last week and we know that many Jews consider it racist and we know it will not help bring about peace.

So with that in mind, why do we tolerate it?

If there was a chant that many but not all Muslims found racist would it be cool for us to go around chanting it on the streets? I'd suggest not.

Just seen Ben Jamal from Palestine Solidarity Campaign on Channel 4 News being heavily quizzed by Krishnan Guru-Murty. He couldn't confirm Israel's right to exist despite asked several times.

This chant should get in the bin.

It isn't about ignoring it, it is about not wanting to set a precedent that you later regret. It is about valuing one person's right to say something over the other person's right to be offended/upset.

There is a line somewhere of course but you do appear to be drawing it very close to one end of the spectrum, evidenced by the fact that you don't seem to be able to explain why you think the words are racist or racially motivated.

There is also an argument that censoring/suppressing something that you think develops into or is linked to dangerous extremism probably won't achieve what you intend it to for a few reasons. 1) extremist views go underground but also 2) the moderates feel unjustly persecuted and move further towards entrenched ideological positions and further away from pushing for a logical solution which stops innocent people dying.

[life on mars]

Re: "From the river to the sea" chant

Let's be honest quite a number of folk within these Pro Palestinian marches are a handy cover for Antisemitism hatred.

See Labour starting to show its colours as Andy Mcdonald is suspended for uttering this dreadful genocide phrase .

What happens with his actual Muslim MP's surely they resigned on principle.

Everyones fool Corbyn may have to step up and save the party or form a new one with his radicals .