"Science is not perfect but it trumps faith and belief all the time" - true or false?

[truthpaste]

I don't think I'm bothered at all.

You asked if anyone could help Sludge out - and I replied to say he doesn't need help (not on this subject anyway: when it comes to coalition governments or heavy metal he clearly needs a lot of help).

But you (with a little bit of help from Gofer - who adopts a very different approach even if he shares some of your core beliefs) have carpet bombed the Alt Board in the past 8 months with your religion, or faith, or ministry, or whatever you call it.

It is hard to avoid - and hijacks endless threads. You want a reaction, but when you get one you complain that the reaction doesn't conform to your reference points or language. Tough.

I remember discussions around faith on this board many years ago - but they were not so strident and swivel eyed. As a side issue or as a philosophical conversation they can be interesting.

I said in the past that I rejected Christianity aged 12 as part of the Congregationalist Church membership process (most others in my group became Church members after a summer of discussions led by the minister). My Gran was a denominational tourist in Cardiff (Congregationalist to Methodist to Baptist) and we had endless conversations about her faith and what I had just read in the Communist Manifesto! Most of my family considered themselves as non-conformist Christians, but gave little thought to it - they just liked the social familiarity of people, place and ritual.

My dad was a deep thinker who was very active in the Church until he died - but was hostile to organised religion, regarded himself as a Christian but didn't (I think) believe in God or the Devil, heaven or hell. He used what he saw as 'Christs's teachings' as a moral code for life on earth now. We argued about politics and religion all my life - and enjoyed the argument. He was part of a group who called themselves 'The Heretics' and were always at odds with the minister. One of their close friends and a church member was Professor John Davies who was deputy to Bernard Lovell at Jodrell Bank Observatory. He led discussion groups at the church on relativity, space/time and black holes! I think (as an astronomer) he shared my dad's world view. I have also been influenced by Jewish and Islamic friends over the years - many of whom have a cultural affinity to their inherited religion but few accept the religious side.

We live in a corner of northern Europe with a cultural legacy of 16 centuries or more of Christianity that was all pervasive up to a couple of generations ago, and exposure more recently to other faiths and cultures. Of course it is part of us and part of our lives. But we don't have to accept the baggage that comes from an accident of birth - of time, of place and of circumstances. We can think for ourselves and adopt our own questions and standards of evidence, using our lifetime of experience to decide if we need a supernatural answer to those questions, or can use our best understanding of science and nature to reach conclusions. I go with the latter. Nothing else makes sense to me.

That is all I have to add.

Thanks for the history and detail, your anger and indignation now makes a lot more sense. In the course of my work over a number of decades, it's interesting that it isn't the agnostic atheists that have the biggest problems with God's Word but those that have either been exposed to the religious attempts at Christianity or have had close friends or relatives that have been peppered with such ideas.

You see the agnostic atheist who hasn't been given the confusing picture of the 'modern' take on Christainity starts with something close to a blank sheet rather than a picture that doesn't make sense at all. So because they have bypassed all the man-made religion and are presented with the Bible itself, I have always found them to be open, reasonable and rarely inflamed on the subject; in many cases they often (as time goes by) ask for more and more information which they are happy to consider and often come back for further dialogue/ correspondance.

Now I'm not saying that they all conclude that God is real or right on all things, but in most cases they attain a deep respect for the Scriptures that they never had before, see that it contains history and science that is timeless and in no need of correction or updates.

In contrast, for most religion infected individuals, someone like me will post the investigations of *Strobel or McDowell, who were both nostril flaring atheists and proud of it, and the skeptics here are too nervous/ preoccupied or apathetic to give them the time of day. But you see such a lack of engagement wouldn't produce a quality newspaper article, or make a respected journalist; I'm sure you get that. Anyway thanks for sharing the detail of your family and that history, that is very much appreciated. The key reason I am sharing mainly what I do, is because I firmly believe we are all eternal beings (housed currently in these crumbling bodies), and we all need to prepare for what will be the vast majority of our existance. You may not want people like Gofer and myself to care for the eternal plight of individuals, but we just do.

* In the above clip Strobel talks about why he wrote the Book "Is God Real?" because his researchers told him that on average 200 times per second, people around the planet are typing that question (or similar) into search engines.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

[QUOTE=truthpaste;5513339]Thanks for the history and detail, your anger and indignation now makes a lot more sense. In the course of my work over a number of decades, it's interesting that it isn't the agnostic atheists that have the biggest problems with God's Word but those that have either been exposed to the religious attempts at Christianity or have had close friends or relatives that have been peppered with such ideas.

You see the agnostic atheist who hasn't been given the confusing picture of the 'modern' take on Christainity starts with something close to a blank sheet rather than a picture that doesn't make sense at all. So because they have bypassed all the man-made religion and are presented with the Bible itself, I have always found them to be open, reasonable and rarely inflamed on the subject; in many cases they often (as time goes by) ask for more and more information which they are happy to consider and often come back for further dialogue/ correspondance.

Now I'm not saying that they all conclude that God is real or right on all things, but in most cases they attain a deep respect for the Scriptures that they never had before, see that it contains history and science that is timeless and in no need of correction or updates.

In contrast, for most religion infected individuals, someone like me will post the investigations of *Strobel or McDowell, who were both nostril flaring atheists and proud of it, and the skeptics here are too nervous/ preoccupied or apathetic to give them the time of day. But you see such a lack of engagement wouldn't produce a quality newspaper article, or make a respected journalist; I'm sure you get that. Anyway thanks for sharing the detail of your family and that history, that is very much appreciated. The key reason I am sharing mainly what I do, is because I firmly believe we are all eternal beings (housed currently in these crumbling bodies), and we all need to prepare for what will be the vast majority of our existance. You may not want people like Gofer and myself to care for the eternal plight of individuals, but we just do.

* In the above clip Strobel talks about why he wrote the Book "Is God Real?" because his researchers told him that on average 200 times per second, people around the planet are typing that question (or similar) into search

Evidence

I don't want in my opinion type stuff

Or a 6 minute clip of someone analysing something said 2000 years ago in a book

Evidence

Not hearsay

[truthpaste]

[QUOTE=SLUDGE FACTORY;5513343]

Thanks for the history and detail, your anger and indignation now makes a lot more sense. In the course of my work over a number of decades, it's interesting that it isn't the agnostic atheists that have the biggest problems with God's Word but those that have either been exposed to the religious attempts at Christianity or have had close friends or relatives that have been peppered with such ideas.

You see the agnostic atheist who hasn't been given the confusing picture of the 'modern' take on Christainity starts with something close to a blank sheet rather than a picture that doesn't make sense at all. So because they have bypassed all the man-made religion and are presented with the Bible itself, I have always found them to be open, reasonable and rarely inflamed on the subject; in many cases they often (as time goes by) ask for more and more information which they are happy to consider and often come back for further dialogue/ correspondance.

Now I'm not saying that they all conclude that God is real or right on all things, but in most cases they attain a deep respect for the Scriptures that they never had before, see that it contains history and science that is timeless and in no need of correction or updates.

In contrast, for most religion infected individuals, someone like me will post the investigations of *Strobel or McDowell, who were both nostril flaring atheists and proud of it, and the skeptics here are too nervous/ preoccupied or apathetic to give them the time of day. But you see such a lack of engagement wouldn't produce a quality newspaper article, or make a respected journalist; I'm sure you get that. Anyway thanks for sharing the detail of your family and that history, that is very much appreciated. The key reason I am sharing mainly what I do, is because I firmly believe we are all eternal beings (housed currently in these crumbling bodies), and we all need to prepare for what will be the vast majority of our existance. You may not want people like Gofer and myself to care for the eternal plight of individuals, but we just do.

* In the above clip Strobel talks about why he wrote the Book "Is God Real?" because his researchers told him that on average 200 times per second, people around the planet are typing that question (or similar) into search

Evidence

I don't want in my opinion type stuff

Or a 6 minute clip of someone analysing something said 2000 years ago in a book

Evidence

Not hearsay

Both these guys were far more angry and indignant than you about the claims of the Bible and both of them set out to trash it's claims.
Neither of them wanted a drive-thru look at the subject (like you have appeared to want up to this point) but a detailed investigation. Now if you are equally serious then you will do likewise, Strobel took two years away from his job as an award winning journalist to look at every aspect of the Resurrection, from the evidence inside and outside the Bible, I don't expect you to do 2 whole years; so how about 2 hours to watch the movie which INCLUDES the evidence that you claim you wish to examine?

Are YOU serious about this? We shall see.

Your call > His problem with Christianity and his thorough investigation.

[Gofer Blue]

I don't think I'm bothered at all.

You asked if anyone could help Sludge out - and I replied to say he doesn't need help (not on this subject anyway: when it comes to coalition governments or heavy metal he clearly needs a lot of help).

But you (with a little bit of help from Gofer - who adopts a very different approach even if he shares some of your core beliefs) have carpet bombed the Alt Board in the past 8 months with your religion, or faith, or ministry, or whatever you call it.

It is hard to avoid - and hijacks endless threads. You want a reaction, but when you get one you complain that the reaction doesn't conform to your reference points or language. Tough.

I remember discussions around faith on this board many years ago - but they were not so strident and swivel eyed. As a side issue or as a philosophical conversation they can be interesting.

I said in the past that I rejected Christianity aged 12 as part of the Congregationalist Church membership process (most others in my group became Church members after a summer of discussions led by the minister). My Gran was a denominational tourist in Cardiff (Congregationalist to Methodist to Baptist) and we had endless conversations about her faith and what I had just read in the Communist Manifesto! Most of my family considered themselves as non-conformist Christians, but gave little thought to it - they just liked the social familiarity of people, place and ritual.

My dad was a deep thinker who was very active in the Church until he died - but was hostile to organised religion, regarded himself as a Christian but didn't (I think) believe in God or the Devil, heaven or hell. He used what he saw as 'Christs's teachings' as a moral code for life on earth now. We argued about politics and religion all my life - and enjoyed the argument. He was part of a group who called themselves 'The Heretics' and were always at odds with the minister. One of their close friends and a church member was Professor John Davies who was deputy to Bernard Lovell at Jodrell Bank Observatory. He led discussion groups at the church on relativity, space/time and black holes! I think (as an astronomer) he shared my dad's world view. I have also been influenced by Jewish and Islamic friends over the years - many of whom have a cultural affinity to their inherited religion but few accept the religious side.

We live in a corner of northern Europe with a cultural legacy of 16 centuries or more of Christianity that was all pervasive up to a couple of generations ago, and exposure more recently to other faiths and cultures. Of course it is part of us and part of our lives. But we don't have to accept the baggage that comes from an accident of birth - of time, of place and of circumstances. We can think for ourselves and adopt our own questions and standards of evidence, using our lifetime of experience to decide if we need a supernatural answer to those questions, or can use our best understanding of science and nature to reach conclusions. I go with the latter. Nothing else makes sense to me.

That is all I have to add.

Thanks for your post. A very interesting read. I can empathise with your Dad's position to some extent as were it not for Jesus I would have found it very difficult to believe in God.

[+ the native hipster]

question , why are we so opposed to Christianity but celebrate the influx of muslim fanatics ?

[Gofer Blue]

[QUOTE=truthpaste;5513360]

Both these guys were far more angry and indignant than you about the claims of the Bible and both of them set out to trash it's claims.
Neither of them wanted a drive-thru look at the subject (like you have appeared to want up to this point) but a detailed investigation. Now if you are equally serious then you will do likewise, Strobel took two years away from his job as an award winning journalist to look at every aspect of the Resurrection, from the evidence inside and outside the Bible, I don't expect you to do 2 whole years; so how about 2 hours to watch the movie which INCLUDES the evidence that you claim you wish to examine?

Are YOU serious about this? We shall see.

Your call > His problem with Christianity and his thorough investigation.

Do you seriously expect him to watch a 2 hour film about the resurrection? I suspect there may be an element of fear in there somewhere - fear that the findings of Strobel or McDowell or Morison might actually make sense. Much easier to head to an atheist critique of the former authors to reaffirm your own take on it and save all the effort of actually doing the research for yourself!

Your statement: In the course of my work over a number of decades, it's interesting that it isn't the agnostic atheists that have the biggest problems with God's Word but those that have either been exposed to the religious attempts at Christianity or have had close friends or relatives that have been peppered with such ideas. hits the proverbial nail on the head. SF has admitted that he grew up in a Catholic church environment which fits with that. As I have said before he won't believe even if Jesus himself turned up at his house - he would dismiss it as an hallucination or a Tory conspiracy.

[Gofer Blue]

question , why are we so opposed to Christianity but celebrate the influx of muslim fanatics ?

I'm not sure we "celebrate" the influx of Muslims but I do know whilst it's perfectly ok for all and sundry to blaspheme Jesus and ridicule Christians, it would take a very brave person to do the same with Islam and its founder!

[jeepster]

question , why are we so opposed to Christianity but celebrate the influx of muslim fanatics ?

Who celebrates this?
Only racists would bring this up in a discussion about do you believe in god.

[+ the native hipster]

Who celebrates this?
Only racists would bring this up in a discussion about do you believe in god.

i believe in one god allah

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

question , why are we so opposed to Christianity but celebrate the influx of muslim fanatics ?

Gosh of all the people to ask that question

What a surprise

I don't celebrate nutters of any religion

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

[QUOTE=truthpaste;5513360]

Both these guys were far more angry and indignant than you about the claims of the Bible and both of them set out to trash it's claims.
Neither of them wanted a drive-thru look at the subject (like you have appeared to want up to this point) but a detailed investigation. Now if you are equally serious then you will do likewise, Strobel took two years away from his job as an award winning journalist to look at every aspect of the Resurrection, from the evidence inside and outside the Bible, I don't expect you to do 2 whole years; so how about 2 hours to watch the movie which INCLUDES the evidence that you claim you wish to examine?

Are YOU serious about this? We shall see.

Your call > His problem with Christianity and his thorough investigation.

Yep I want a drive through

If God is great and everywhere prove it

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

[QUOTE=Gofer Blue;5513472]

Do you seriously expect him to watch a 2 hour film about the resurrection? I suspect there may be an element of fear in there somewhere - fear that the findings of Strobel or McDowell or Morison might actually make sense. Much easier to head to an atheist critique of the former authors to reaffirm your own take on it and save all the effort of actually doing the research for yourself!

Your statement: In the course of my work over a number of decades, it's interesting that it isn't the agnostic atheists that have the biggest problems with God's Word but those that have either been exposed to the religious attempts at Christianity or have had close friends or relatives that have been peppered with such ideas. hits the proverbial nail on the head. SF has admitted that he grew up in a Catholic church environment which fits with that. As I have said before he won't believe even if Jesus himself turned up at his house - he would dismiss it as an hallucination or a Tory conspiracy.

If you think you have met Jesus then the only one having hallucinations is you

Everybody else just wants proof

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I'm not sure we "celebrate" the influx of Muslims but I do know whilst it's perfectly ok for all and sundry to blaspheme Jesus and ridicule Christians, it would take a very brave person to do the same with Islam and its founder!

All religion is a joke

[+ the native hipster]

Gosh of all the people to ask that question

What a surprise

I don't celebrate nutters of any religion

'Islamist' celebrate my religion , or else ...

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

'Islamist' celebrate my religion , or else ...

I am not an Islamist

And the Muslims I know have not shot me yet

[truthpaste]

[QUOTE=Gofer Blue;5513472]

Do you seriously expect him to watch a 2 hour film about the resurrection? I suspect there may be an element of fear in there somewhere - fear that the findings of Strobel or McDowell or Morison might actually make sense. Much easier to head to an atheist critique of the former authors to reaffirm your own take on it and save all the effort of actually doing the research for yourself!

Your statement: In the course of my work over a number of decades, it's interesting that it isn't the agnostic atheists that have the biggest problems with God's Word but those that have either been exposed to the religious attempts at Christianity or have had close friends or relatives that have been peppered with such ideas. hits the proverbial nail on the head. SF has admitted that he grew up in a Catholic church environment which fits with that. As I have said before he won't believe even if Jesus himself turned up at his house - he would dismiss it as an hallucination or a Tory conspiracy.

* The film? Well not really, the rising fear and the promptings within (Eph.6) wouldn't really allow that, but this conversation isn't happening in a vacuum, so I thought it was justified. I guess in reality he's always going to be part of the drive-thru audience.

[truthpaste]

All religion is a joke

You keep repeating this. Ironically it is not the solution for you, me or anyone, yet it is still your biggest enemy.

[Gofer Blue]

[QUOTE=SLUDGE FACTORY;5513487]

If you think you have met Jesus then the only one having hallucinations is you

Everybody else just wants proof

I have never met Jesus in person but will one day of course! Enjoy the film. 😉

[truthpaste]

[QUOTE=Gofer Blue;5513560]

I have never met Jesus in person but will one day of course! Enjoy the film. ��

Indeed, and everyone else gets to meet him too.

Even the Father judges no one, for He has given all judgment (the last judgment and the whole business of judging) entirely into the hands of the Son (John 5:22).

[jon1959]

[QUOTE=truthpaste;5513571]

Indeed, and everyone else gets to meet him too.

Even the Father judges no one, for He has given all judgment (the last judgment and the whole business of judging) entirely into the hands of the Son (John 5:22).

It's all delusional bollox (Sludge 1:69)

[truthpaste]

[QUOTE=jon1959;5513604]

It's all delusional bollox (Sludge 1:69)

An interesting paraphrase.

Human reasoning never really changes.......written just over 3000 years ago:-

From Psalm 14:-

1 Only fools say in their hearts,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, and their actions are evil;
not one of them does good!
2 The Lord looks down from heaven
on the entire human race;
he looks to see if anyone is truly wise,
if anyone seeks God.
3 But no, all have turned away;
all have become corrupt.
No one does good,
not a single one!
4 Will those who do evil never learn?
They eat up my people like bread
and wouldn’t think of praying to the Lord.
5 Terror will grip them,
for God is with those who obey him.
6 The wicked frustrate the plans of the oppressed,
but the Lord will protect his people.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

[QUOTE=truthpaste;5513571]

Indeed, and everyone else gets to meet him too.

Even the Father judges no one, for He has given all judgment (the last judgment and the whole business of judging) entirely into the hands of the Son (John 5:22).

Off we go again quoting the Bible

It's irrelevant

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

[QUOTE=truthpaste;5513571]

Indeed, and everyone else gets to meet him too.

Even the Father judges no one, for He has given all judgment (the last judgment and the whole business of judging) entirely into the hands of the Son (John 5:22).

More quotes no facts

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

[QUOTE=truthpaste;5513606]

An interesting paraphrase.

Human reasoning never really changes.......written just over 3000 years ago:-

From Psalm 14:-

1 Only fools say in their hearts,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, and their actions are evil;
not one of them does good!
2 The Lord looks down from heaven
on the entire human race;
he looks to see if anyone is truly wise,
if anyone seeks God.
3 But no, all have turned away;
all have become corrupt.
No one does good,
not a single one!
4 Will those who do evil never learn?
They eat up my people like bread
and wouldn’t think of praying to the Lord.
5 Terror will grip them,
for God is with those who obey him.
6 The wicked frustrate the plans of the oppressed,
but the Lord will protect his people.

You hope !

Facts please

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

[QUOTE=truthpaste;5513571]

Indeed, and everyone else gets to meet him too.

Even the Father judges no one, for He has given all judgment (the last judgment and the whole business of judging) entirely into the hands of the Son (John 5:22).

Why havnt any of your mates or relatives who are dead but in heaven contacted you or got God to contact you to confirm all this ?

It would save a lot of messing about