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Thread: Election issues: Tax and public services

  1. #26

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by az city View Post
    ****ing hilarious reply - Reinhart and Rogoff's work was trashed and they are considered pariahs. But keep quoting them, fool.

    (PS. Maybe google more deeply before quoting bollocks.)
    I left this one alone as soon as the IFS got slated

  2. #27
    pipster
    Guest

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Cuts to the Welsh NHS are nothing to do with a party trying to win votes

    In fact Welsh government cuts are definitely going to lead to a reduction of votes but they had to be done

    The Tories are promising TAX CUTS which will lead to reduced services ........that's not being done because it has to be done ....its being done to try and win votes

    I am surprised people can't see the difference .....unless they are Tories 🤔

    Welsh government makes cuts knowing it will reduce its popularity and lose votes , definitely

    Sunak , on his arse , promises tax cuts to GAIN votes


    🤔

    It's obvious that the tory boys on here are pissed off they are getting a shafting

    It's going to be a tough few years for you all
    And so it starts all over again, is every day like this for you ?

    In 2010 - it was Labour not being able to keep control of massive public sector projects - 6 billion NHS IT system, schools rebuilding program that Ed Balls spunked 70% of the budget before laying a brick etc - so when the toxic loans crash from the US kicked in - it whacked us.
    When Covid hit - it wiped 10% off the economy almost over night - unless of course you think Thatcher caused covid - in which case you have a point :)

  3. #28

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    The field of economics is interesting, but just like politics and technology there are arseholes in the sphere, who cling to theories like a comfort blanket. Usual bilge of Left v Right, red v blue, bog standard tribal baboonery. In this case, tribalism in their theories.

    These people are apparently university educated and are supposed to learn the art of objectivity, logical reasoning and critical thinking. Yet despite an alleged higher IQ than the average person many still display tribal behaviours, and the predictable mental hijacking of their amygdala that many humans have not shaken off since the day of the caveman.

    Economics has some well founded branches of theory and some are emerging. The more established are the four schools Keynesian, Austrian and Monetarist and the discredited Marxist school. But they are nnown quantities. Less tested, and more niche, but no less relevant, are branches that use network theory, historical / cultural school, complexity theory and the new areas of mesa-economics to explain economic behaviour. All schools have their pros and cons.

    The real skill, and what the best economists are doing, is to acknowledge by observations and data (bottom up) what is working, and connect to the theory (top down) to arrive at a consumate conclusion. Those skilled ones will be handsomely paid by the private sector to make predictions - mega corporations, investment banks and hedge funds for example, who cannot afford their six figure salaries. Real money follows their economic predictions and if they are wrong too often they get fired or moved. Most academics hiding in universities, the research rooms of the OEDC, IMF and Treasury can cling to their theory and talk bollocks as often as they want. If they are wrong they keep their jobs or protected by unions, so they don’t have skin in the game. No money nor reputation on the line. Free hand to talk shite. No come backs. Often paid a low 40-50k for their verbal and written diahorrea. Many of you will not know that economic advisors to The Treasury and those at the Bank of England are also paid a low salary of 35k to 60k for their verbal and written porridge, depending on their civil service grade and time served, not competence.

    The most ridiculous branch in recent years was Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). These were the real bimbos in the room. They are the real boobie blondes in the world of economics. When interest rates were near zero years ago, the press actually gave these monkey air time. They said “Look! Debts and deficits don’t matter - borrow more! Aren’t we a genius?!!”. Even the FT gave them a platform. On this forum people discussed it. I pointed out on here and the FT that the major fault was the ignorance of interest rate and inflation cycles that come and go, and that 0% rates were a historical anomaly and wouldn’t last. Then I said the high debt affordability will be hurt by rising rate. Lo and behold rates shot up in 2022. MMT has died a death since and MMT economists have returned to their academic cocoons. Pain has appeared.In true keeping with boobie blondes they are temporarily useful, and soon dismissed and offloaded once we have seen and heard enough.

    Let me point another example out. When you heard the nonsense that “Inflation is transitory” from the central banks and general media, I pointed out (yes please search the threads) this was rubbish. I pointed out that inflation would continue upwards, interest rates will follow it and that there will be some pain. I knew that because the central banks had faulty modelling and were saying “But look at the data inflation is low. I see no evidence.” The central bankers use old historical Keynesian data models. They wait for inflation to hit in the form of rising consumer prices or wages. Useless for predicting inflation as they have to wait for it to happen before declaring it has happened. They don’t look at the sources of inflation (aggregate money supply, commodity prices, and supply chains that ship those commodities.) I could see differently as I was using multiple schools of economics to draw my conclusion, and wasn’t tribal.

    - Using financial market data I could see that most commodity prices had risen.

    - I could also see that wide money supply metrics were out of control. of economics models. Monetarist school of economics models that Keynesians ignore.

    - I could see that credit was out of control. Inflationary. Austrian school of economics models that Keynesians ignore.

    - I was also using knowledge from the Historical school of economics. I knew that inflation went crazy after World War 2 due to supply shocks, not demand side issues. I also knew that interest rates and inflation moved in historic cycles. I also knew from the 1960s and 1970s that Middle East conflict caused issues for oil priced and inflation. As this is Bayesian data and not sufficient date in the models, Keynesians will ignore.

    - Using mesa-economics I could see that the Panama and Suez canal restrictions would create a supply issues and drive prices up. I could also see this being reflected in shipping and freight rates - inflationary. Models that Keynesians ignore.

    - I also knew from complexity theory that at times like this, that politicians and central bankers make mistakes on inflation. Information that Keynesians ignore.

    So as you can see, like economics in the high paid private sector I wasn’t interested in clinging to one theory. All the other schools of economic theory (other than Keynesian models) were giving me warning signs that inflation was coming. I went off that, rather than clinging to my “favourite theory”. That is what many so-called academic economists have been making poor calls in the last five years.

    You have to know what school and model applies to the point in time and event you are trying to assess, and try and use multiple schools to see how many are confirming or not. It ain’t rocket science, but you just have to know where to look, and seperate your political views from your economics and eliminate that bias.

  4. #29

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I left this one alone as soon as the IFS got slated
    It is nice to try “projecting” about googling, as it is you doing precisely that. It is clear in the way you present your thinking. ChatGPT was it perhaps?

    Rogoff and Reinhardt were only slated by the mongs in the political-economic branches. IFS has political-economists inside it, which is evident in their language. I take it you are just parroting the BBC as opposed to reading the primary source? Otherwise it would be clear as day.

    Reinhardt and Rogoff’s data was accepted by the IMF, and in fact promoted by them. God knows where you got that opinion from. You cannot change the historic data. But then I can clearly see you are a political-economic “blogger” so straight away I know you are auto-conflicted.

    No hedge fund, trading operation, nor mega-corporation would pay you a decent salary for those views. Those views belong in political “think tanks” (stink tanks), NGOs, or some polytechnic.

    Please feel free to come back to me when you have had major money backing your economic predictions, and perhaps I might afford you a sympathetic ear. And please, it needs to be something much more substantial than Katies Cakes from Abertridwr, The Welsh Development Agency or Polytechnic of Stoke.

  5. #30

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by pipster View Post
    And so it starts all over again, is every day like this for you ?

    In 2010 - it was Labour not being able to keep control of massive public sector projects - 6 billion NHS IT system, schools rebuilding program that Ed Balls spunked 70% of the budget before laying a brick etc - so when the toxic loans crash from the US kicked in - it whacked us.
    When Covid hit - it wiped 10% off the economy almost over night - unless of course you think Thatcher caused covid - in which case you have a point :)
    And you say you are not a tory

    Get the feck out

  6. #31

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Soze View Post
    It is nice to try “projecting” about googling, as it is you doing precisely that. It is clear in the way you present your thinking. ChatGPT was it perhaps?

    Rogoff and Reinhardt were only slated by the mongs in the political-economic branches. IFS has political-economists inside it, which is evident in their language. I take it you are just parroting the BBC as opposed to reading the primary source? Otherwise it would be clear as day.

    Reinhardt and Rogoff’s data was accepted by the IMF, and in fact promoted by them. God knows where you got that opinion from. You cannot change the historic data. But then I can clearly see you are a political-economic “blogger” so straight away I know you are auto-conflicted.

    No hedge fund, trading operation, nor mega-corporation would pay you a decent salary for those views. Those views belong in political “think tanks” (stink tanks), NGOs, or some polytechnic.

    Please feel free to come back to me when you have had major money backing your economic predictions, and perhaps I might afford you a sympathetic ear. And please, it needs to be something much more substantial than Katies Cakes from Abertridwr, The Welsh Development Agency or Polytechnic of Stoke.
    You are replying to the wrong person perchance ?

  7. #32

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Soze View Post
    The field of economics is interesting, but just like politics and technology there are arseholes in the sphere, who cling to theories like a comfort blanket. Usual bilge of Left v Right, red v blue, bog standard tribal baboonery. In this case, tribalism in their theories.

    These people are apparently university educated and are supposed to learn the art of objectivity, logical reasoning and critical thinking. Yet despite an alleged higher IQ than the average person many still display tribal behaviours, and the predictable mental hijacking of their amygdala that many humans have not shaken off since the day of the caveman.

    Economics has some well founded branches of theory and some are emerging. The more established are the four schools Keynesian, Austrian and Monetarist and the discredited Marxist school. But they are nnown quantities. Less tested, and more niche, but no less relevant, are branches that use network theory, historical / cultural school, complexity theory and the new areas of mesa-economics to explain economic behaviour. All schools have their pros and cons.

    The real skill, and what the best economists are doing, is to acknowledge by observations and data (bottom up) what is working, and connect to the theory (top down) to arrive at a consumate conclusion. Those skilled ones will be handsomely paid by the private sector to make predictions - mega corporations, investment banks and hedge funds for example, who cannot afford their six figure salaries. Real money follows their economic predictions and if they are wrong too often they get fired or moved. Most academics hiding in universities, the research rooms of the OEDC, IMF and Treasury can cling to their theory and talk bollocks as often as they want. If they are wrong they keep their jobs or protected by unions, so they don’t have skin in the game. No money nor reputation on the line. Free hand to talk shite. No come backs. Often paid a low 40-50k for their verbal and written diahorrea. Many of you will not know that economic advisors to The Treasury and those at the Bank of England are also paid a low salary of 35k to 60k for their verbal and written porridge, depending on their civil service grade and time served, not competence.

    The most ridiculous branch in recent years was Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). These were the real bimbos in the room. They are the real boobie blondes in the world of economics. When interest rates were near zero years ago, the press actually gave these monkey air time. They said “Look! Debts and deficits don’t matter - borrow more! Aren’t we a genius?!!”. Even the FT gave them a platform. On this forum people discussed it. I pointed out on here and the FT that the major fault was the ignorance of interest rate and inflation cycles that come and go, and that 0% rates were a historical anomaly and wouldn’t last. Then I said the high debt affordability will be hurt by rising rate. Lo and behold rates shot up in 2022. MMT has died a death since and MMT economists have returned to their academic cocoons. Pain has appeared.In true keeping with boobie blondes they are temporarily useful, and soon dismissed and offloaded once we have seen and heard enough.

    Let me point another example out. When you heard the nonsense that “Inflation is transitory” from the central banks and general media, I pointed out (yes please search the threads) this was rubbish. I pointed out that inflation would continue upwards, interest rates will follow it and that there will be some pain. I knew that because the central banks had faulty modelling and were saying “But look at the data inflation is low. I see no evidence.” The central bankers use old historical Keynesian data models. They wait for inflation to hit in the form of rising consumer prices or wages. Useless for predicting inflation as they have to wait for it to happen before declaring it has happened. They don’t look at the sources of inflation (aggregate money supply, commodity prices, and supply chains that ship those commodities.) I could see differently as I was using multiple schools of economics to draw my conclusion, and wasn’t tribal.

    - Using financial market data I could see that most commodity prices had risen.

    - I could also see that wide money supply metrics were out of control. of economics models. Monetarist school of economics models that Keynesians ignore.

    - I could see that credit was out of control. Inflationary. Austrian school of economics models that Keynesians ignore.

    - I was also using knowledge from the Historical school of economics. I knew that inflation went crazy after World War 2 due to supply shocks, not demand side issues. I also knew that interest rates and inflation moved in historic cycles. I also knew from the 1960s and 1970s that Middle East conflict caused issues for oil priced and inflation. As this is Bayesian data and not sufficient date in the models, Keynesians will ignore.

    - Using mesa-economics I could see that the Panama and Suez canal restrictions would create a supply issues and drive prices up. I could also see this being reflected in shipping and freight rates - inflationary. Models that Keynesians ignore.

    - I also knew from complexity theory that at times like this, that politicians and central bankers make mistakes on inflation. Information that Keynesians ignore.

    So as you can see, like economics in the high paid private sector I wasn’t interested in clinging to one theory. All the other schools of economic theory (other than Keynesian models) were giving me warning signs that inflation was coming. I went off that, rather than clinging to my “favourite theory”. That is what many so-called academic economists have been making poor calls in the last five years.

    You have to know what school and model applies to the point in time and event you are trying to assess, and try and use multiple schools to see how many are confirming or not. It ain’t rocket science, but you just have to know where to look, and seperate your political views from your economics and eliminate that bias.
    Are you applying for a job or something?

    I think you are wasted on here

    Quite literally

    Probably every day

  8. #33
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    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Soze View Post
    It is nice to try “projecting” about googling, as it is you doing precisely that. It is clear in the way you present your thinking. ChatGPT was it perhaps?

    Rogoff and Reinhardt were only slated by the mongs in the political-economic branches. IFS has political-economists inside it, which is evident in their language. I take it you are just parroting the BBC as opposed to reading the primary source? Otherwise it would be clear as day.

    Reinhardt and Rogoff’s data was accepted by the IMF, and in fact promoted by them. God knows where you got that opinion from. You cannot change the historic data. But then I can clearly see you are a political-economic “blogger” so straight away I know you are auto-conflicted.

    No hedge fund, trading operation, nor mega-corporation would pay you a decent salary for those views. Those views belong in political “think tanks” (stink tanks), NGOs, or some polytechnic.

    Please feel free to come back to me when you have had major money backing your economic predictions, and perhaps I might afford you a sympathetic ear. And please, it needs to be something much more substantial than Katies Cakes from Abertridwr, The Welsh Development Agency or Polytechnic of Stoke.
    Keep quoting the discredited stuff and claiming you're correct when you've been caught out using ChatGPT injudiciously.

    Here's the BBC take on it: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22223190

  9. #34
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    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    You are replying to the wrong person perchance ?
    Sludgey, I've got this.

  10. #35

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by az city View Post
    It seems to me both major parties are misleading the public somewhat on tax and spending.

    The UK isn't a particularly high taxation state and its debt to GDP ratio isn't that high. I'm using G7 means as a comparator.

    I think the arbitrary "golden rule" is either implicitly or explicitly being followed by both parties. It's a rule of thumb based upon the sustainability of debt payments, I believe, but I'm not sure it's still relevant. In short, there may be more headroom for debt-based spending than the rule implies.

    Isn't the UK public's problem it wants US tax levels and Scandinavian public services so it gets a muddled neither. And that's what the parties are offering - muddle.
    Spot on, and who ever said paying tax is in anyway bad? Anyone who pays full taxes should be proud of their contribution to society. The only bad thing in the UK is that far too many poor people pay taxes and the overwhelming number of the rich cohort get away scot free.

    The first tax I'd tackle is Inheritance Tax. I'd make it 100%!

  11. #36

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Are you applying for a job or something?

    I think you are wasted on here

    Quite literally

    Probably every day
    Done my time in the workplace. Some people show an interest in it, some pontificate as if they are experts and clearly they aren’t, and it is a field of my interest, work experience and qualifications.

    Debates happen. People share info. I am semi-retired so I have the time and there are gaps on my day when my trades can take several days or weeks before they pay off.

    Quiet day today. Trades placed against French banks and bonds! A few crypto trades placed and a share bought. Two hours work and my day is done. Nowt to do for a few days now!

    Waiting game so I just flick around, look at sports news, watch prices, hit the gym and see what ****ers like you are up to on here 🤭😉

  12. #37

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by az city View Post
    Keep quoting the discredited stuff and claiming you're correct when you've been caught out using ChatGPT injudiciously.

    Here's the BBC take on it: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22223190
    BBC 😂😂😂 Do you think any serious market analyst, trader, or high punching economist would quote the BBC? You would be sacked. Seriously Az, go and get help.

    Imagine a debate between surgeons over an operation and one saying “Look listen to me, here is a bite sized article from the BBC. There I am now proven correct”. 😂😂😂

    Keep digging. You will soon need a world record length spade, or a diamond-edged oil rig drill to keep going. One of the funniest responses I have seen.

  13. #38

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Soze View Post
    Done my time in the workplace. Some people show an interest in it, some pontificate as if they are experts and clearly they aren’t, and it is a field of my interest, work experience and qualifications.

    Debates happen. People share info. I am semi-retired so I have the time and there are gaps on my day when my trades can take several days or weeks before they pay off.

    Quiet day today. Trades placed against French banks and bonds! A few crypto trades placed and a share bought. Two hours work and my day is done. Nowt to do for a few days now!

    Waiting game so I just flick around, look at sports news, watch prices, hit the gym and see what ****ers like you are up to on here 🤭😉
    It's like a scene out of American Psycho

  14. #39
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    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Soze View Post
    BBC 😂😂😂 Do you think any serious market analyst, trader, or high punching economist would quote the BBC? You would be sacked. Seriously Az, go and get help.

    Imagine a debate between surgeons over an operation and one saying “Look listen to me, here is a bite sized article from the BBC. There I am now proven correct”. 😂😂😂

    Keep digging. You will soon need a world record length spade, or a diamond-edged oil rig drill to keep going. One of the funniest responses I have seen.
    You clearly know absolutely zero about serious Economics. You can't even spell FFS.

    Go on, you're an expert apparently, tell us all your qualifications and experience in terms of Economics. Just a warning to you - you're likely on a very sticky wicket here. I've actually met Rogoff - have you?

  15. #40
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    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Soze View Post
    Done my time in the workplace. Some people show an interest in it, some pontificate as if they are experts and clearly they aren’t, and it is a field of my interest, work experience and qualifications.

    Debates happen. People share info. I am semi-retired so I have the time and there are gaps on my day when my trades can take several days or weeks before they pay off.

    Quiet day today. Trades placed against French banks and bonds! A few crypto trades placed and a share bought. Two hours work and my day is done. Nowt to do for a few days now!

    Waiting game so I just flick around, look at sports news, watch prices, hit the gym and see what ****ers like you are up to on here ����
    Interesting.... if that is all true.

    (Is there a prize for the most words posted in a season?)

    You always seem very pleased with yourself.

    Are you are useful member of society? Just wondering.

  16. #41
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    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    There needs to be better performance management in the civil service, budget responsibilities are suspect or non existence, who checks on how the money is spent , workers have very decent pensions , flexible working , more leave than your private worker. Mgrs are well paid .
    When it comes to spending they are too quick to chuck money at non critical things sone if which are pure vanity projects.

    It's easy to go bankrupt if your not bothered.

  17. #42
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    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    Interesting.... if that is all true.

    (Is there a prize for the most words posted in a season?)

    You always seem very pleased with yourself.

    Are you are useful member of society? Just wondering.

    I like him.

  18. #43
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    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I like him.
    Maybe because you are him?

  19. #44

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    There needs to be better performance management in the civil service, budget responsibilities are suspect or non existence, who checks on how the money is spent , workers have very decent pensions , flexible working , more leave than your private worker. Mgrs are well paid .
    When it comes to spending they are too quick to chuck money at non critical things sone if which are pure vanity projects.

    It's easy to go bankrupt if your not bothered.
    Not keen on turning worker against worker but since you took us there.. pensions are shite in the private sector because nobody can bring themselves to legislate decent pensions into existence. Most public sector pension schemes have been weakened and weakened over the last decade or so and public sector pay has fallen in real terms whilst private sector pay has risen. Now, the reason for that may well be because those at the top of the private sector are on a massive cash grab but that isn't your average public sector workers problem.

    As for the original post, until social care is removed from local government balance sheet, people are going to look at their council tax bill and think '**** me, it can't cost that much to take the bins once a fortnight'

  20. #45

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by az city View Post
    Maybe because you are him?
    Keyser Soze might be cringey but don't do this to him

  21. #46

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by az city View Post
    Maybe because you are him?
    Wrong horse.

  22. #47
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    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    Wrong horse.
    Same stable.

  23. #48

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Loaded magazine has been relaunched apparently and it’s seemingly being aimed at the same people who read it in the nineties (Liz Hurley is the relaunched magazines first cover girl). Sorry, he seems knowledgeable in a range of subjects, but since learning this, I can’t read anything Keyser Soze posts without thinking of him as the personification of the market the new Loaded is targeting- he’s very 90s laddish isn’t he.

  24. #49

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by az city View Post
    Same stable.
    Similar stable maybe - but LoM is not one of the multis adopted by a certain individual on here.

  25. #50

    Re: Election issues: Tax and public services

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    As for the original post, until social care is removed from local government balance sheet, people are going to look at their council tax bill and think '**** me, it can't cost that much to take the bins once a fortnight'
    Yep. Council tax makes up a relative low amount of all council income. Most comes from Westminster and is redistributed by WG. That has been cut constantly over the last 14 years. There was also another sleight of hand a few years ago. Councils used to send business rates back to the treasury but the Conservative government changed the rules allowing councils to keep that money and have reductions in what was given to them from Westminster. As a result, councils in affluent areas that could command good money from business rates did ok, while poorer councils couldn't raise as much as they lost out on.

    But as you say, lots of people don't realise things like this. All they see are council tax bills going up but less to show for it. In case anyone things I'm making any of this up, I was able to get a Conservative councillor to agree that this was indeed the case.

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