40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

[jeepster]

The IDF are the settlers and the settlers are the IDF. They are all as one. That is the problem. The IDF has the unconditional political and military support from its superpower lapdog, the USA. They also have conscription. What is the difference between bombing/raping/war crimes/torture/murder by conscripted Israelis and HAMAS? This notion that one side is better than the other is totally false. Atrocities are atrocities. Anyone who supports, actively takes part in and supplies weapons to either side is complicit. There's no grey area. You're focusing on HAMAS as if they exist in a vacuum.

Great reply.

[jon1959]

This is what puzzles me about the scenario you describe - one which seems to be repeated daily in Gaza. Let's imagine that you or I were a Palestinian in a house with several other members of our immediate/extended family and there was a Hamas gunman hiding there amongst them. You would surely know that the presence of this man makes it highly probable that your house would be the target for an IDF bomb/missile. Either you or I have willingly sheltered this guy or he has threatened/intimidated the family into allowing him to stay there. Why would you want to expose yourself/your family to this risk?

What a neat and tidy and simplistic view!

Would you care to elaborate?

Genuinely interested if you have any comments as this is a topic where I never seen any discussion either on here or in the media. Is it fear of, or conversely, wholesale support of Hamas fighters by the Palestinian people despite the incredible loss of civilian lives? Or is there some other possibility that I have not thought of?

I suppose a complete skeptic could argue that there are no Hamas fighters embedded in Palestinian homes at all and the IDF are simply targetting homes at random?

OK if it is a genuine question I will try to expand on my throw away response above - but I am away from home with a useless phone signal and wifi that crashes every few minutes, so it will be brief.

I cannot imagine a Gaza wasteland in the way you suggest, with Hamas gunmen and civilians clearly identifiable in the rubble, the chaos, the hunger, the constant moving from one unsafe zone to another, the disease and the violent deaths. I have no special knowledge, but everything I have seen on TV and online makes a nonsense of the suggestion. There are few houses left. People win’t know who is in the tent or under the tarp a few yards away.

In October last year there were an estimated 30,000 Hamas (and other armed groups) fighters, but many were part time volunteers doing other jobs. There were many other people involved in civil society as members of the Hamas movement - sanitary workers, police, local government, some medical staff, some journalists…. and they had no part in the October attack. The IOF/IDF has killed a lot of fighters (although the Israelis and US think they have been replaced) amongst the women, children and babies and they have regarded everyone in Gaza as a legitimate target. They see the people as either fighters, other Hamas or part of the population where Hamas has its roots. Civilian deaths are not unfortunate ‘collateral damage’ as you suggest but part of Israeli political and military strategy that goes back to the Lebanon invasion - killing large numbers of civilians and ma king life untenable will (they hope) undermine the resistance. There is a mountain of public evidence for that from the Israelis themselves.

I’m sure there is also intimidation from Hamas (and parasitic criminal gangs) against sections of the civilian population. Hamas is an authoritarian and often violent movement that has lost a lot of its members to decades of Israeli occupation and violence and has been guilty of war crimes and some grotesque atrocities itself on and after 7 October. Desperate people in a situation, where it is clear their lives (and the lives of their communities) are seen as worthless, will do desperate and terrible things.

My main point is that it doesn’t much matter if your hypothetical Gazan civilian can step away from a Hamas fighter in the next room ir next pile of rubble. He and his family will still be a target. When they are blown apart, burnt or crushed the USA will probable announce its’ ‘concern’ and demand that Israel investigates itself. And the world keeps turning!

[Gofer Blue]

The IDF are the settlers and the settlers are the IDF. They are all as one. That is the problem. The IDF has the unconditional political and military support from its superpower lapdog, the USA. They also have conscription. What is the difference between bombing/raping/war crimes/torture/murder by conscripted Israelis and HAMAS? This notion that one side is better than the other is totally false. Atrocities are atrocities. Anyone who supports, actively takes part in and supplies weapons to either side is complicit. There's no grey area. You're focusing on HAMAS as if they exist in a vacuum.

I take no side in this terrible situation. You have not addressed the issue that I raised but have simply reiterated the bleedin obvious - that both sides are guilty of horrific acts and both have the blood of innocents on their hands. My question is why would the ordinary man-in-the-street Palestinian have a Hamas fighter(s) sheltering in his home when he must know full well by now that this is highly likely to become a target for an IDF air strike?

[jeepster]

I take no side in this terrible situation. You have not addressed the issue that I raised but have simply reiterated the bleedin obvious - that both sides are guilty of horrific acts and both have the blood of innocents on their hands. My question is why would the ordinary man-in-the-street Palestinian have a Hamas fighter(s) sheltering in his home when he must know full well by now that this is highly likely to become a target for an IDF air strike?

How can you not see intimidation from hamas fighters how could you say NO.

[Gofer Blue]

OK if it is a genuine question I will try to expand on my throw away response above - but I am away from home with a useless phone signal and wifi that crashes every few minutes, so it will be brief.

I cannot imagine a Gaza wasteland in the way you suggest, with Hamas gunmen and civilians clearly identifiable in the rubble, the chaos, the hunger, the constant moving from one unsafe zone to another, the disease and the violent deaths. I have no special knowledge, but everything I have seen on TV and online makes a nonsense of the suggestion. There are few houses left. People win’t know who is in the tent or under the tarp a few yards away.

In October last year there were an estimated 30,000 Hamas (and other armed groups) fighters, but many were part time volunteers doing other jobs. There were many other people involved in civil society as members of the Hamas movement - sanitary workers, police, local government, some medical staff, some journalists…. and they had no part in the October attack. The IOF/IDF has killed a lot of fighters (although the Israelis and US think they have been replaced) amongst the women, children and babies and they have regarded everyone in Gaza as a legitimate target. They see the people as either fighters, other Hamas or part of the population where Hamas has its roots. Civilian deaths are not unfortunate ‘collateral damage’ as you suggest but part of Israeli political and military strategy that goes back to the Lebanon invasion - killing large numbers of civilians and ma king life untenable will (they hope) undermine the resistance. There is a mountain of public evidence for that from the Israelis themselves.

I’m sure there is also intimidation from Hamas (and parasitic criminal gangs) against sections of the civilian population. Hamas is an authoritarian and often violent movement that has lost a lot of its members to decades of Israeli occupation and violence and has been guilty of war crimes and some grotesque atrocities itself on and after 7 October. Desperate people in a situation, where it is clear their lives (and the lives of their communities) are seen as worthless, will do desperate and terrible things.

My main point is that it doesn’t much matter if your hypothetical Gazan civilian can step away from a Hamas fighter in the next room ir next pile of rubble. He and his family will still be a target. When they are blown apart, burnt or crushed the USA will probable announce its’ ‘concern’ and demand that Israel investigates itself. And the world keeps turning!

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I think you may have hit the proverbial nail on the head with your statement:

Civilian deaths are not unfortunate ‘collateral damage’ as you suggest but part of Israeli political and military strategy that goes back to the Lebanon invasion - killing large numbers of civilians and making life untenable will (they hope) undermine the resistance.

It is indeed possible that Israel is hoping that by making life intolerable for the ordinary Palestinians they will eventually turn against HAMAS rather than give them unconditional support/shelter. I too am sure that there has to be intimidation by HAMAS as I cannot believe that having witnessed the slaughter of over 40,000 of their fellow citizens very few people would willingly take in HAMAS fighters into their homes.

BTW I did not suggest that civilian deaths in these circumstances can be called collateral damage. I would define collateral damage (as in any war scenario) as being when civilians are living near strategic military targets such as munitions factories and suffer casualties simply because they are unfortunately near such establishments. Of course the situation in Gaza is not a "normal" war as there there are terrorists living cheek by jowl with the civilian population so to the IDF this legitimises their activities. To everyone else, the deliberate targetting of civilians in residential areas is rightly called out as murder and a war crime.

P.S. I actually live near an army base which houses a signal regiment and in the event of WW3 I anticipate a nuke will promptly see me off along with the army base. I would count myself as collateral damage.

[Gofer Blue]

How can you not see intimidation from hamas fighters how could you say NO.

So you think intimidation is the reason? If so, isn't it odd that you never hear a bereaved father/mother who has lost his/her entire family blaming HAMAS? I watch Al Jazeera quite a lot and I have never heard anyone blaming HAMAS for his/her home being targetted. This may be due to fear of reprisal of course but I would think that having lost everything there would not be much left to live for anyway. I try to put myself in that situation but I really don't know what I would do. My heart simply aches for these poor people, what can I do other than pray for them?

[Citizen's Nephew]

I take no side in this terrible situation. You have not addressed the issue that I raised but have simply reiterated the bleedin obvious - that both sides are guilty of horrific acts and both have the blood of innocents on their hands. My question is why would the ordinary man-in-the-street Palestinian have a Hamas fighter(s) sheltering in his home when he must know full well by now that this is highly likely to become a target for an IDF air strike?

It's important to acknowledge that the question you raise focuses heavily on Hamas, while sidestepping the larger context of the occupation and the daily hardships faced by Palestinians. Your insistence on this particular angle, and the way you frame the situation, suggests a focus on one side, whether intended or not. This is problematic because it oversimplifies a deeply complex situation.

Many Palestinians are trapped between a rock and a hard place, dealing with systemic oppression, blockades, and violence. To suggest that a "man on the street" would willingly shelter Hamas fighters ignores the reality that in many cases, Palestinians have little to no choice in these matters. The constant threat of violence, displacement, and lack of control over their own lives limits their ability to make decisions that seem clear-cut from an outside perspective.

The focus, instead, should be on the need for an immediate ceasefire and de-escalation to stop the loss of innocent lives on both sides. Your reply feels condescending because it dismisses the lived reality of an oppressed people, as if the choices they are making are simple, when in fact they are not.

It’s also worth considering that focusing solely on Hamas deflects from the broader conversation about the need for a ceasefire and addressing the root causes of this conflict, including the ongoing occupation and humanitarian crisis.

[Citizen's Nephew]

So you think intimidation is the reason? If so, isn't it odd that you never hear a bereaved father/mother who has lost his/her entire family blaming HAMAS? I watch Al Jazeera quite a lot and I have never heard anyone blaming HAMAS for his/her home being targetted. This may be due to fear of reprisal of course but I would think that having lost everything there would not be much left to live for anyway. I try to put myself in that situation but I really don't know what I would do. My heart simply aches for these poor people, what can I do other than pray for them?

It's clear that your heart goes out to those suffering, but I have to point out that your line of questioning is a form of victim-blaming. By implying that Palestinians aren’t criticising Hamas enough, you're suggesting that they are somehow responsible for the destruction and loss of life they're experiencing. This kind of reasoning deflects from the real issue, which is the overwhelming power imbalance and the brutal conditions imposed on the Palestinian population.

When people are under constant threat, whether from airstrikes, occupation, or even groups like Hamas, they may not feel safe or empowered to openly criticise any of these forces. Living under oppression and violence alters how people behave, and it’s unrealistic to expect that those who have lost everything would necessarily blame a group that’s framed as resisting occupation, even if they don’t agree with all of its methods.

The fact that you haven’t heard Palestinian voices openly condemning Hamas could be due to many factors, including fear, political pressure, or a belief that the greater threat comes from the military strikes and occupation they endure daily. By focusing exclusively on their lack of criticism of Hamas, you’re unintentionally minimising their suffering at the hands of a much more powerful military force. It comes across as taking sides, even if subconsciously.

If we truly want peace and justice, the focus should be on ending all forms of violence, oppression, and occupation. Shifting the conversation away from ceasefire or addressing the root causes of the conflict places undue responsibility on those who are already victims of the situation.

[Citizen's Nephew]

OK if it is a genuine question I will try to expand on my throw away response above - but I am away from home with a useless phone signal and wifi that crashes every few minutes, so it will be brief.

I cannot imagine a Gaza wasteland in the way you suggest, with Hamas gunmen and civilians clearly identifiable in the rubble, the chaos, the hunger, the constant moving from one unsafe zone to another, the disease and the violent deaths. I have no special knowledge, but everything I have seen on TV and online makes a nonsense of the suggestion. There are few houses left. People win’t know who is in the tent or under the tarp a few yards away.

In October last year there were an estimated 30,000 Hamas (and other armed groups) fighters, but many were part time volunteers doing other jobs. There were many other people involved in civil society as members of the Hamas movement - sanitary workers, police, local government, some medical staff, some journalists…. and they had no part in the October attack. The IOF/IDF has killed a lot of fighters (although the Israelis and US think they have been replaced) amongst the women, children and babies and they have regarded everyone in Gaza as a legitimate target. They see the people as either fighters, other Hamas or part of the population where Hamas has its roots. Civilian deaths are not unfortunate ‘collateral damage’ as you suggest but part of Israeli political and military strategy that goes back to the Lebanon invasion - killing large numbers of civilians and ma king life untenable will (they hope) undermine the resistance. There is a mountain of public evidence for that from the Israelis themselves.

I’m sure there is also intimidation from Hamas (and parasitic criminal gangs) against sections of the civilian population. Hamas is an authoritarian and often violent movement that has lost a lot of its members to decades of Israeli occupation and violence and has been guilty of war crimes and some grotesque atrocities itself on and after 7 October. Desperate people in a situation, where it is clear their lives (and the lives of their communities) are seen as worthless, will do desperate and terrible things.

My main point is that it doesn’t much matter if your hypothetical Gazan civilian can step away from a Hamas fighter in the next room ir next pile of rubble. He and his family will still be a target. When they are blown apart, burnt or crushed the USA will probable announce its’ ‘concern’ and demand that Israel investigates itself. And the world keeps turning!

I think you've done very well to write such an eloquent response. That may sound patronising in print, but I think you'll accept that's not my intention. I'm finding it increasingly difficult to construct sound and polite arguments regarding the line of questioning. I'm on the edge. But holding out and trying to imagine my replies getting by a sub editor or moderator in The G. It's not my default position. I'm inwardly looking like the painting by Edvard Munch.

[Citizen's Nephew]

....and there's more https://www.theguardian.com/world/ar...l-deadly-raids

...OK. That's the last one on this thread. I'm done.

[jon1959]

....and there's more https://www.theguardian.com/world/ar...l-deadly-raids

...OK. That's the last one on this thread. I'm done.

Abu Mahmood makes the point better than any of us could.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Abu Mahmood makes the point better than any of us could.

👍

[Dorcus]

👍

Sadly I think this is one of those issues whereby no matter how obvious the facts may patently be, some people are so entrenched in their beliefs they will find extraordinary ways to circumvent the truth.

[Gofer Blue]

Sadly I think this is one of those issues whereby no matter how obvious the facts may patently be, some people are so entrenched in their beliefs they will find extraordinary ways to circumvent the truth.

If this post is aimed at folk like me, can I say that I would not describe myself as being "entrenched in any particular beliefs" about the Palestinian situation. I follow this thread with interest to read what others are thinking and have occasionally contributed to it myself. It breaks my heart to see the suffering of the Palestinian people especially the children. However there is nothing that I can do in a practical way other than to suggest a Kinder transport type scheme (to help orphaned children specifically) to my M.P. which was rejected. I also pray every day that the fighting will stop.

Having said that, I make no apology for asking any awkward but honest questions such as when the IDF attack residential dwellings because they believe HAMAS fighters are located therein and why that might be. CN and jon1959 have responded with long and well written pieces on this aspect. I appreciate that it is a very complicated picture but both have agreed with me that one factor is that HAMAS are certainly capable of intimidating the very people who they are supposedly fighting for and thus it is perfectly understandable that the ordinary civilian Palestinian could fear them. I try to put myself in that situation and wonder what I would do to protect my family if HAMAS fighters set themselves up in my house - very difficult. I also refute the suggestion that I am "victim blaming" for the situation in Gaza and I apologise if it comes over in that way. I get most of the news about Gaza from Al Jazeera which is hardly a pro-Israeli news outlet! IDF have declared that one of their main objectives is to wipe out HAMAS fighters and this is what they think they can achieve, no matter what the cost to civilians who are in the way. Of course instead their activities are an effective recruiting campaign for HAMAS and a never ending cycle of death and destruction.

What the IDF are doing in the West Bank now is beyond the pale, which apart from the killing, is the wanton destruction of infrastructure using bulldozers etc. This ties in with comments from jon1959 and CN – that the IDF is indeed trying to make life intolerable for the Palestinians. How will this all end? I despair.

[truthpaste]

Sadly I think this is one of those issues whereby no matter how obvious the facts may patently be, some people are so entrenched in their beliefs they will find extraordinary ways to circumvent the truth.

Firmly trusting in someone/ something that can withstand attacks will look irritating to those still looking for the same.
But you've already swallowed one 'extraordinary way to circumvent the truth' - it's called macro evolution.

[Dorcus]

Firmly trusting in someone/ something that can withstand attacks will look irritating to those still looking for the same.
But you've already swallowed one 'extraordinary way to circumvent the truth' - it's called macro evolution.

The only thing I've swallowed today is Weetabix and what on Earth is "macro evolution"? I would suggest you need to discuss with computer scientists to find out how macros have evolved.

[stevo]

Israel seems hell bent on starting a full-scale war in the middle east.

[truthpaste]

The only thing I've swallowed today is Weetabix and what on Earth is "macro evolution"? I would suggest you need to discuss with computer scientists to find out how macros have evolved.

I've spoken with many scientists, none of whom can provide one example of macro evolution, only micro evolution (speciation).
I also have many contacts within the scientific community who believe the Biblical account including a good friend who is a professor at Bristol University and at the top of his field. Glad to hear you have swallowed one genuine item, that being Weetabix.

[truthpaste]

What I would say about the current device attack on Hezbollah (assuming it is the IDF), is that it is directed specifically to operatives and while it is terrible that two children have perished because of their relationship with the members of Hezbollah, in contrast the constant missiles being sent into Northern Israel are simply being sent to kill anyone who is close enough to the explosions.
Unfortunately the expected response won't take such facts into consideration and the fear across the world is that this could lead to something far bigger than the Gaza confict.

[jeepster]

What I would say about the current device attack on Hezbollah (assuming it is the IDF), is that it is directed specifically to operatives and while it is terrible that two children have perished because of their relationship with the members of Hezbollah, in contrast the constant missiles being sent into Northern Israel are simply being sent to kill anyone who is close enough to the explosions.
Unfortunately the expected response won't take such facts into consideration and the fear across the world is that this could lead to something far bigger than the Gaza confict.

https://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.ph...e%20explosions.

Not like when Israel bomb and kill countless civilians.

[jon1959]

UN high commissioner for human rights demands accountability for Lebanon pager blasts

Those responsible for a deadly wave of explosions across Lebanon targeting paging devices used by members of the Hezbollah militant group “must be held to account”, the UN high commissioner for human rights said on Wednesday.

“Simultaneous targeting of thousands of individuals, whether civilians or members of armed groups, without knowledge as to who was in possession of the targeted devices, their location and their surroundings at the time of the attack, violates international human rights law and, to the extent applicable, international humanitarian law,” Volker Türk said in a statement, reports Agence France-Presse (AFP).


The UN secretary general, António Guterres, held a briefing before news of the latest wave of device blasts across Lebanon on Wednesday that officials say has killed at least three people and wounded more than 100.

Guterres said it was “very important” that civilian objects should not be weaponised after 12 people were killed and up to 2,800 were wounded in Tuesday’s pager blasts.


Solar power systems exploded in homes across Lebanon – report

Several solar power systems exploded in people’s homes across Lebanon, according to the National News Agency, injuring at least one girl in the town of al-Zahrani in south Lebanon.

Pictures of exploded solar panels, fingerprint readers and other devices circulated through social media, though it was unclear if they blew up by themselves or were simply near walkie-talkies which blew up.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...latest-updates

[jon1959]

https://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.ph...e%20explosions.

Not like when Israel bomb and kill countless civilians.

Yes, but that is good terrorism in support of the real estate deal done by a stone age patriarch and Truthpaste's invisible friend.

We have to understand the difference between the chosen people and the non-people.

[goats]

https://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.ph...e%20explosions.

Not like when Israel bomb and kill countless civilians.

How on earth did mossad get small incendiary devices into pagers made in another country? And how did they know where they would end up, ie with their enemy? Bet the terrorists didn’t see that coming? Really didn’t know pagers still existed….

[jon1959]

How on earth did mossad get small incendiary devices into pagers made in another country? And how did they know where they would end up, ie with their enemy? Bet the terrorists didn’t see that coming? Really didn’t know pagers still existed….

I understood the pagers and walkie talkies were used because they cannot be hacked in the same way as a mobile phone.

But the explosives seem to have been put in the devices where they were assembled (either Hungary or Taiwan depending on which denials you believe).

There must be much back slapping in Tel Aviv. And not as many 'civilians' killed and maimed as usual - only a lot.

Now sit back and watch the escalation of a regional war with the potential to spread further.

Just so Bibi doesn't have to face his corruption trials (well - that is one reason).

[goats]

I understood the pagers and walkie talkies were used because they cannot be hacked in the same way as a mobile phone.

But the explosives seem to have been put in the devices where they were assembled (either Hungary or Taiwan depending on which denials you believe).

There must be much back slapping in Tel Aviv. And not as many 'civilians' killed and maimed as usual - only a lot.

Now sit back and watch the escalation of a regional war with the potential to spread further.

Just so Bibi doesn't have to face his corruption trials (well - that is one reason).

Yes but how did they know where the pagers would end up? Or are the terrorists Israel fights the only people in the world that use them? Guess they must be….