FT: SUNDERLAND 2 - 1 CARDIFF CITY. Match thread

[Father Dougal]

I don't. I think some have an inflated sense of how good they think our side is. For the most part, we've been crap for a few years now. I don't believe we keep having rubbish manager after rubbish manager.

We do though.

Apart from warnock since malky every manager has been rubbish. Not just for us but for other sides also. Who hasnt?

Which of the managers since malky would be wanted by a half decent championship club?

[Mr Soul '68]

I don't. I think some have an inflated sense of how good they think our side is. For the most part, we've been crap for a few years now. I don't believe we keep having rubbish manager after rubbish manager.

Eric, if you have the time and the inclination, could you get your CCFC spreadsheet out, and let me/us know how many games since Riza took charge that we have gone one or two goals down before scoring. Cheers

[Hilts]

I don't. I think some have an inflated sense of how good they think our side is. For the most part, we've been crap for a few years now. I don't believe we keep having rubbish manager after rubbish manager.

I think a Lowe , Rowett , sorry Warnock would have by now a settled spine of the team.

We don't. Today Goutas , Bagan. Midweek Ng Goutas. Previously Fish starting. Ng right back Rino right back , Bagan left back O Dowda left back. 4 defenders 5 defenders.

Different midfield partnerships. Ashford in and out.

We can't take throw ins and set pieces are a joke.

It's a feckin mess.

No organisation at all. And I couldn't even describe our style.

Just having these players organised with better in game management and I reckon we'd be around 7 to 8 points better off. We are sleepwalking to relegation.

[Father Dougal]

I think a Lowe , Rowett , sorry Warnock would have by now a settled spine of the team.

We don't. Today Goutas , Bagan. Midweek Ng Goutas. Previously Fish starting. Ng right back Rino right back , Bagan left back O Dowda left back. 4 defenders 5 defenders.

Different midfield partnerships. Ashford in and out.

We can't take throw ins and set pieces are a joke.

It's a feckin mess.

No organisation at all. And I couldn't even describe our style.

Just having these players organised with better in game management and I reckon we'd be around 7 to 8 points better off. We are sleepwalking to relegation.

Absolutely. And we are in poor form.

Hard to say if we will go down as it depends on the bottom 3. However we wont get more than 46 points and birmingham went down with 51 last season? We absolutely wont get 51 so if we do stay up weve been lucky again.

[Father Dougal]

I don't. I think some have an inflated sense of how good they think our side is. For the most part, we've been crap for a few years now. I don't believe we keep having rubbish manager after rubbish manager.

I dont think we will ever agree but i still dont believe milwall sheffield wednesday qpr or swansea are actually significantly better than us with regards to ability. Yet all are completely safe and all closer to promotion than relegation. Yes even swansea are closer to the play offs than they are the relegation zone.

I know you think we just dont have the players to compete with giants like that but i diaagree.

[Grangenders]

The table doesn’t lie so our position is a true reflection of where we should be. I do however think that Luton and Derby are better than us and I expect that to to be shown in the end of season standings.

[Father Dougal]

The table doesn’t lie so our position is a true reflection of where we should be. I do however think that Luton and Derby are better than us and I expect that to to be shown in the end of season standings.

Certainly cant see us finishing above anyone apart from maybe the bottom 3 with the form we are in.

[the other bob wilson]

What I don’t get in this argument is why it’s a question of either or, we can have poor managers and poor players and to pin all of the blame for what is turning into years of struggle on one or the other seems daft to me. Looking at today’s game, you can blame the manager and his coaches for the decision to play out from the back which leads to the first goal, but I don’t blame Riza for the dozy and naive defending for the second goal or the poor defending for Burnley’s two goals. Of course, the tendency is for us to forget the times when Riza has made defensive substitutions and we’ve gone on to win or draw, but it is definitely true that we’ve dropped points in games where he either went defensive too early or in games we were relatively comfortable -in (eg today).

[Father Dougal]

What I don’t get in this argument is why it’s a question of either or, we can have poor managers and poor players and to pin all of the blame for what is turning into years of struggle on one or the other seems daft to me. Looking at today’s game, you can blame the manager and his coaches for the decision to play out from the back which leads to the first goal, but I don’t blame Riza for the dozy and naive defending for the second goal or the poor defending for Burnley’s two goals. Of course, the tendency is for us to forget the times when Riza has made defensive substitutions and we’ve gone on to win or draw, but it is definitely true that we’ve dropped points in games where he either went defensive too early or in games we were relatively comfortable -in (00eg today).

Understand the players let riza down but at the same time its his job to find a way to stop the soft goals time and time again. He cant have 30 plus games and just shrug his shoulders and people think aw its the players fault hes powerless to stop it.

As others have said a decent manager absolutely would find a way to cut silly errors out of the team and ensure we get the basics right.

I dont think the squad is amazing i think it could be mid table with milwall and qpr if we had a good manager. We certainly arent good enough to try and progress without a real manager.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Just having these players organised with better in game management and I reckon we'd be around 7 to 8 points better off. We are sleepwalking to relegation.

The heady heights of 16th after spending 15m.

He keeps chopping and changing people none of them can defend. Riza can't stay past May, that's clear but this isn't all on him. I'd have expected one of the 3 centre halves we've signed to be half decent, and the best defender is Fish, who is behind Bagan. The club is rotten from top to bottom. The buck stops with Tan. He's allowed the rot to set in, this is happening on his watch. He's seemingly happy with the decision makers at the club run it into the ground, signing bad players, appointing mugs for managers, and presiding over tumbling attendances.

I have some sympathy with Riza, he is the least culpable of the recent managers we've had and he seemingly has had a large hand in signing Salech, Mannsverk and Alves.

[Hilts]

What I don’t get in this argument is why it’s a question of either or, we can have poor managers and poor players and to pin all of the blame for what is turning into years of struggle on one or the other seems daft to me. Looking at today’s game, you can blame the manager and his coaches for the decision to play out from the back which leads to the first goal, but I don’t blame Riza for the dozy and naive defending for the second goal or the poor defending for Burnley’s two goals. Of course, the tendency is for us to forget the times when Riza has made defensive substitutions and we’ve gone on to win or draw, but it is definitely true that we’ve dropped points in games where he either went defensive too early or in games we were relatively comfortable -in (eg today).

We've obviously got poor players who make poor decisions. But it really doesn't help our defence when the manager can't pick a settled defence.

I thought he'd seen the errors of his ways and taken Rino off in midweek and putting Fish on as tactical. It seems no Rino was injured. Fish plays well. 2 recognised cbs together. Maybe a partnership to build on.

No Riza bins Fish and now tries Goutas and Bagan. Its just crazy. No wonder we are all over the shop.

Can anyone predict a certain defender Tuesday in a definite position other than Goutas. The LB could be O Dowda or Bagan . The Rb could be Ng or Rino. Goutas partners could be anyone's guess.

That's all on Riza and co. Or maybe more importantly those running the club who put him in this position.

It's no wonder we are a shambles when you then add in the game management.

[Father Dougal]

We've obviously got poor players who make poor decisions. But it really doesn't help our defence when the manager can't pick a settled defence.

I thought he'd seen the errors of his ways and taken Rino off in midweek and putting Fish on as tactical. It seems no Rino was injured. Fish plays well. 2 recognised cbs together. Maybe a partnership to build on.

No Riza bins Fish and now tries Goutas and Bagan. Its just crazy. No wonder we are all over the shop.

Can anyone predict a certain defender Tuesday in a definite position other than Goutas. The LB could be O Dowda or Bagan . The Rb could be Ng or Rino. Goutas partners could be anyone's guess.

That's all on Riza and co. Or maybe more importantly those running the club who put him in this position.

It's no wonder we are a shambles when you then add in the game management.

Good post.

People looking at individual errors in isolation are missing the point.

[Tuerto]

Understand the players let riza down but at the same time its his job to find a way to stop the soft goals time and time again. He cant have 30 plus games and just shrug his shoulders and people think aw its the players fault hes powerless to stop it.

As others have said a decent manager absolutely would find a way to cut silly errors out of the team and ensure we get the basics right.

I dont think the squad is amazing i think it could be mid table with milwall and qpr if we had a good manager. We certainly arent good enough to try and progress without a real manager.

The only way a manager can stop silly mistakes, poor concentration levels, a lack of creativity when it matters etc, is to get rid and bring in better players. I do agree with what you are saying about riza, and his '30' games, but so have these players had 30 games, and they're still making the same errors. I don't think that can be coached out of them, tactically it could be minimised by doing what Warnock did, and that's telling your defenders to knock the ball as far away from goal as possible. Do we want that though? Riza needs to change the playing staff and hope that his choices make a difference, although i don't think that i would trust him with that job.

[Tuerto]

Good post.

People looking at individual errors in isolation are missing the point.

Individual errors carried out by 5 or 6 players on the same pitch in the same game is a massive problem....

[Stanmore Bluebird]

I cannot stand Welsh internationals celebrating when they score against the City (Mepham) unless they are playing for another Welsh team. I know he hails from round the corner to Stanmore ie Harrow - Stanmore is in the borough of Harrow. - but he has over 40 caps for goodness sake! Hope he never plays for Wales again.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

The only way a manager can stop silly mistakes, poor concentration levels, a lack of creativity when it matters etc, is to get rid and bring in better players. I do agree with what you are saying about riza, and his '30' games, but so have these players had 30 games, and they're still making the same errors. I don't think that can be coached out of them, tactically it could be minimised by doing what Warnock did, and that's telling your defenders to knock the ball as far away from goal as possible. Do we want that though? Riza needs to change the playing staff and hope that his choices make a difference, although i don't think that i would trust him with that job.

Every single defender we have has had large spells this season where they've been bloody awful, perhaps Bagan aside. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and you can't turn a defence of Ng, Goutas, Bagan and O'Dowda into a good one.

Our ire should be directed at Patrick Deboys and his recruitment staff who signed these players. The vast majority of our signings don't improve the first team and therein lies your problem.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

I cannot stand Welsh internationals celebrating when they score against the City (Mepham) unless they are playing for another Welsh team. I know he hails from round the corner to Stanmore ie Harrow - Stanmore is in the borough of Harrow. - but he has over 40 caps for goodness sake! Hope he never plays for Wales again.

I hope this is a wind up

By this logic, Ralls should have never celebrated a goal for Cardiff

[the other bob wilson]

We've obviously got poor players who make poor decisions. But it really doesn't help our defence when the manager can't pick a settled defence.

I thought he'd seen the errors of his ways and taken Rino off in midweek and putting Fish on as tactical. It seems no Rino was injured. Fish plays well. 2 recognised cbs together. Maybe a partnership to build on.

No Riza bins Fish and now tries Goutas and Bagan. Its just crazy. No wonder we are all over the shop.

Can anyone predict a certain defender Tuesday in a definite position other than Goutas. The LB could be O Dowda or Bagan . The Rb could be Ng or Rino. Goutas partners could be anyone's guess.

That's all on Riza and co. Or maybe more importantly those running the club who put him in this position.

It's no wonder we are a shambles when you then add in the game management.

I disagree, we’ve been suffering from silly individual and collective mistakes that have cost us goals all season and none of our regular defenders have been immune from that. I prefer to look at it as none of our defensive players are turning in a series of performances that are absolutely demanding selection - Joel Bagan had been doing well, but he’s become more error prone lately.

Ive just read Riza’s post game comments on the BBC site and he’s right when he says we don’t get the sort of chance we gave Sunderland for the winning goal - the implication is clear, other teams do not make such basic errors when facing free kicks as we did.

[Father Dougal]

I hope this is a wind up

By this logic, Ralls should have never celebrated a goal for Cardiff

Or likes of chopra whittingham bothroyd etc..... imagine if none of them had celebrated when scoring against an english club. Wonderful post.

I know its not a serious post but still.

[Hilts]

I disagree, we’ve been suffering from silly individual and collective mistakes that have cost us goals all season and none of our regular defenders have been immune from that. I prefer to look at it as none of our defensive players are turning in a series of performances that are absolutely demanding selection - Joel Bagan had been doing well, but he’s become more error prone lately.

Ive just read Riza’s post game comments on the BBC site and he’s right when he says we don’t get the sort of chance we gave Sunderland for the winning goal - the implication is clear, other teams do not make such basic errors when facing free kicks as we did.

So you don't think having a regular settled defence would have helped over the course of Rizas time in charge.?

I think a right back Ng a left back Bagan with Fish and Goutas going forward will help. I don't think it's great by any means but having them play together where they know their jobs has to help.

You mentioned earlier about the short corners. This has happened in other games as well. We just look badly organised.

Is it Riza , the players. It's probably both. But I'm convinced a better manager would have us better organised and that's why Oxford with Vaulks Harris Brown are ahead of us.

[The Lone Gunman]

I know it’s not a serious post but still.

I wouldn’t be so sure. Stanmore is crackers.

[Jimmy the Jock]

And I'm certain you can do better than this constant holier-than-thou 'positivity' and your frequent, sanctimonious dismissals of anyone and anything you perceive as being negative.

I'm pretty sure everyone is aware by now that you're enjoying this season. As it happens, I'm enjoying it too, especially by comparison to the boring crap that was served up under Bulut for most of last season. However, the truth is we're 21st in the Championship table. We had the worst start to a league campaign in the club's entire history. We recently suffered our heaviest league defeat in my lifetime. As things stand, only two sides in this division have a worse goal difference than us. Only one team has a worse defensive record. And we've won just one of our last six league matches.

Those are not opinions. Those are just the facts. Something for you to ponder while you're dismissing people as being negative.

No shit Sherlock.
How about I know we could get relegated and still enjoy watching the football ..oh no happy clappy again...

Ian . Olderblue , is a friend of mine , funny how he didn't get offended enough to get personal??

You are usually a very good poster when it comes to football , you get distracted trying to belittle others.

I am moving away and will miss most of the end of the season and that breaks my heart
That's how much I love going to watch Cardiff....

[delmbox]

Or likes of chopra whittingham bothroyd etc..... imagine if none of them had celebrated when scoring against an english club. Wonderful post.

I know its not a serious post but still.

100% will be a serious post, this is the man who moans every time the Welsh football team is discussed on a forum full of Welsh football fans

[Pedro de la Rosa]

So you don't think having a regular settled defence would have helped over the course of Rizas time in charge.?

Who would you play?

Also, how many of our signings in the January 24 and Summer 24 window start for us today?

[the other bob wilson]

So you don't think having a regular settled defence would have helped over the course of Rizas time in charge.?

I think a right back Ng a left back Bagan with Fish and Goutas going forward will help. I don't think it's great by any means but having them play together where they know their jobs has to help.

You mentioned earlier about the short corners. This has happened in other games as well. We just look badly organised.

Is it Riza , the players. It's probably both. But I'm convinced a better manager would have us better organised and that's why Oxford with Vaulks Harris Brown are ahead of us.

Ng has had what most would regard as his worst season with us this time around and although he could ask where his support was, he was taken to the cleaners by Mundle in the opening half an hour. To be fair to him, Ng has been playing better lately, but I wouldn’t rate him as a reliable right back at this level over the past seven months. Goutas is probably the closest thing we have to an automatic choice at centreback, but we’ve conceded close to 130 goals in well under two seasons since we signed - the fact is we’ve gone back a lot compared to what we were before he came here.Bagan, I’d not have a problem with at left back and I would prefer O’Dowda to stick to one position. Fish, it’s early days yet and I wouldn’t want to commit to him being the best partner to Goutas yet.

Someone like Daland exemplifies our problems I think. There are times when he looks like he will develop into a good Championship level defender, but then he’ll make absolutely basic mistakes like letting the ball bounce and not being aware of what’s happening around him like when he gave away a penalty and sustained the injury that has kept him out for weeks at Stoke, that’s not down to bad coaching, that’s down to not concentrating fully.

Short corners, yes you’re right there, that’s down to Riza and co.