Derby County tonight!

[North Cardiff Blue]

Ok, well firstly this team (or a similar one at least) was good enough to finish mid table last year.

Secondly they were good enough to go on a mini run of decent results as soon as Bulut left.

Thirdly, so many Championship teams that I have seen this year are absolutely terrible, with worse players than ours.

And fourthly, we have got rid of the real rubbish (see Kanga for Salech etc). Whereas we still have some passenger (I’ll leave that to you to decide who) we have a starting XI easily capable of mid table.

Whereas the players aren’t world beaters there are enough players who are good enough for mid table but the manager isn’t and directionless leadership is responsible for not maximising the potential of the players.

The players of course are culpable too but I think that ignoring the fact that we have a very inexperienced manager who has regularly made poor in game decisions that most people can spot straight away is akin to an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.

There you go.

Spot on nailed it!

[Rjk]

In his prime, Neil Warnock would have transformed defenders like Fish, Bagan, Darland, or Goutis into a more cohesive unit. He would likely have deployed traditional full-backs in defence and utilised wingers in their natural positions. If we had a Warnock from five or six years ago, our safety in the league would be assured by now. However, some might then complain about the direct style of play, preferring a more possession-based approach, even if it leads to losses, huge goals against and relegation.

If you only look back at what Warnock did in his first 18 months or so with us then of course that would be great - nobody would be complaining about the style of football, because it was great to watch - especially at the start of the promotion season.
If you were guaranteed that then there wouldn't be a manager in the division who wouldn't want him.

However that is ignoring everything else that happened.

He filled our squad with ageing players on inflated salaries that weren't good enough.
We completely wasted the parachute payments we had on dross.

I wou;dn't want him anywhere near the side again.

[Rjk]

Loads better, you've taken out the toughest run of games in the season, Sunderland, Burnley away, Swansea away, Boro, Derby away, Leeds, we'd still have been 22nd if he had those games.

How many points would we need from those games to make a big difference though? we only got 1 and we looked completely abject under Bulut - have people forgotten how toothless we were?

If we had that run of games coming up I would be expecting more than 1 point from them.

[North Cardiff Blue]

1. You're using your opinion as if you're qioting facts and so I'll do the same and say that last season was a freak in which the stats show us as consistently one of the weakest squads in the division - albeit a weak squad which was able to keep clean sheets, unlike this one.

2. Every side in the Championship goes on a mini run of good results at some time in the season - we've had two decent runs of results followed by the inevitable fall from grace because you cannot expect to have any concerted success when you only keep two clean sheets in twenty seven games.

3. That's your opinion about how poor other teams are. Mine is that we were lucky to beat Millwall, Norwich and Hull while I struggle to think of many we haven't won that we might have - maybe Stoke and Watford.

4. How can we have possibly have a starting eleven "easily capable of mid table?' when we can only keep two clean sheets every twenty seven games? These players aren't as good as you think they are.

In my opinion, Riza made a really big mistake in his third game in charge (Bristol City) and the worst thing about that is there's been few signs that he learned from it. As I mentioned we've had two decent to good spells this season, but, having started so poorly, they've both been followed by bad spells where the same old mistakes are repeated. Riza has made mistakes, but he's not been helped by a squad that keeps on repeating the sort of defensive mistakes I don't believe you can blame managers or coaches for when they keep on happening so regularly (always assuming the coaching staff have tried to sort things out on the training ground).

Having watched us defend for eight months now, it cannot be denied that we're hopeless at it. I also look at this team's character and they wilt too easily, they don't strike me as having the street wise credentials that are needed in this division and they are weak when it comes to basics like set pieces - I think most managers currently in this division would not be able to keep our current squad out of the bottom six.

​This season's team surpasses last year's in quality but suffers from mismanagement. The issues originate from an inexperienced manager who prioritises attacking play and ball movement. While an attacking approach is commendable, establishing a solid defence is crucial as a foundation.​

Relegation isn't always due to the weakest squads; often, it's the result of managers failing to maximise their players' potential.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

I reckon he would yes, he did it with most teams he took over around that time you said.

The point is he would have improved us very quickly and got us out of this mess like he did when he came here last time and got promoted the following season.

Your man Riza is more likely to get us relegated two years in a row.

If you think Riza compares favourably with a Warnock in his prime, you should stick to knitting and stop wasting people's time on here that want to discuss football and our relegation fight.

Are you intentionally being a shit? Riza is not my man, let's get that straight. Stop suggesting it and stop acting like a prick.

I also said that Warnock rarely achieved that. Try reading what I write instead of making up things and claiming I've said them.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Loads better, you've taken out the toughest run of games in the season, Sunderland, Burnley away, Swansea away, Boro, Derby away, Leeds, we'd still have been 22nd if he had those games.

You don't know that, nobody does.

Once again, please stop claiming things as facts when you don't have a clue.

[North Cardiff Blue]

If you only look back at what Warnock did in his first 18 months or so with us then of course that would be great - nobody would be complaining about the style of football, because it was great to watch - especially at the start of the promotion season.
If you were guaranteed that then there wouldn't be a manager in the division who wouldn't want him.

However that is ignoring everything else that happened.

He filled our squad with ageing players on inflated salaries that weren't good enough.
We completely wasted the parachute payments we had on dross.

I wou;dn't want him anywhere near the side again.

We needed someone like him to ensure our safety. I mentioned him as an example because there were numerous experienced managers available, yet we appointed a coach instead. It's like letting one of the Youth Training Scheme trainees drive the team bus to away games. They might get us there, but there's a higher chance they'd end up in the River Severn trying to cross the bridge.​

[North Cardiff Blue]

How many points would we need from those games to make a big difference though? we only got 1 and we looked completely abject under Bulut - have people forgotten how toothless we were?

If we had that run of games coming up I would be expecting more than 1 point from them.

Fair enough, I think one point for Riza would be about right, although he does have Salech and Davies instead of Kanga

[North Cardiff Blue]

You don't know that, nobody does.

Once again, please stop claiming things as facts when you don't have a clue.

I don't think Riza would have done any better, based on his record since, we can't fecking beat Luton even with Alves, Salech and Davies.

[North Cardiff Blue]

Are you intentionally being a shit? Riza is not my man, let's get that straight. Stop suggesting it and stop acting like a prick.

I also said that Warnock rarely achieved that. Try reading what I write instead of making up things and claiming I've said them.

You've backed Riza all season, don't drop him now he's struggling, your man Riza needs your backing more than at any time now.

[North Cardiff Blue]

Are you intentionally being a shit? Riza is not my man, let's get that straight. Stop suggesting it and stop acting like a prick.

I also said that Warnock rarely achieved that. Try reading what I write instead of making up things and claiming I've said them.

I think at his best those few years around us and Rotherham he was doing just that, Warnock at his prime was a top-firefighting Championship Manager, and that's what we needed not your man Riza.

[the other bob wilson]

I think at his best those few years around us and Rotherham he was doing just that, Warnock at his prime was a top-firefighting Championship Manager, and that's what we needed not your man Riza.

The problem is, our record since Riza was appointed has us well above the bottom three.

https://www.twtd.co.uk/league-tables...home-and-away/

[North Cardiff Blue]

The problem is, our record since Riza was appointed has us well above the bottom three.

https://www.twtd.co.uk/league-tables...home-and-away/

Yes that's been mentioned before and does give us some hope but that has taken out the toughest run of games in the season. Sunderland, Burnley away, Swansea away, Boro, Derby away, and Leeds, I don't think Riza woud have got more than one or two points from them.

On the positive side, we've got goals, good strikers in form, and a good attacking set of midfield/wingers, we just need to get the best from the defence and defensive midfielders, and stop the errors.

[Rjk]

The problem is, our record since Riza was appointed has us well above the bottom three.

https://www.twtd.co.uk/league-tables...home-and-away/

It does make you wonder what people would deem a success for Riza's first season - he took over a side who were completely devoid of any ideas and were rock bottom of the table.

Since taking over we've been inconsistent - and there are definitely issues with the defence - but we've been the 16th best team since he took over.

If this is Riza being hopelessly out of his depth, how much further up the table do people think would be reasonable to expect?

Presumably nobody thinks we should have gone from rock bottom to in the playoffs?

Top half since he took over - that would only be 3 points more than we've got
Top 10 would be 5 points.

Is the difference between hopelessly out of depth and doing a decent job in the circumstances really 5 points?

[PontBlue]

The trouble is our best back four isn't a good back four

[The Lone Gunman]

The problem is, our record since Riza was appointed has us well above the bottom three.

https://www.twtd.co.uk/league-tables...home-and-away/

The problem with that particular table is that it takes no account of the opposition.

City have thus far won just two away games this season. Those victories were against the teams currently 11th and 9th in the table, while the home victories have come against sides who are currently ranked no higher than 10th.

Based on everything we've seen so far this season, how many extra points do you reckon City would have gained from the first six matches if Riza had also been in charge for those? I think an additional two points is probably optimistic.

[The Lone Gunman]

Since taking over we've been inconsistent - and there are definitely issues with the defence - but we've been the 16th best team since he took over.

That's bollocks.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Yes that's been mentioned before and does give us some hope but that has taken out the toughest run of games in the season. Sunderland, Burnley away, Swansea away, Boro, Derby away, and Leeds, I don't think Riza woud have got more than one or two points from them.

On the positive side, we've got goals, good strikers in form, and a good attacking set of midfield/wingers, we just need to get the best from the defence and defensive midfielders, and stop the errors.

Riza has beaten Swansea and Derby, and got a draw against Boro. Bulut had a tough start but Derby are garbage and the Championship is proof anyone can beat anyone. We made it harder by having Bulut in charge, who is a dreadful manager and one of the very worst Tan has appointed

[The Lone Gunman]

Riza has beaten Swansea (H) and Derby (H), and got a draw against Boro (A).

Let's put those results in context....

Under Riza we beat Portsmouth and Hull at home, but lost both of the away games.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Let's put those results in context....

Under Riza we beat Portsmouth and Hull at home, but lost both of the away games.

I think Riza is crap but to say we might have got something at the start of the season is not out of this world. Keeping Bulut made a tough job, tougher

[The Lone Gunman]

I think Riza is crap but to say we might have got something at the start of the season is not out of this world. Keeping Bulut made a tough job, tougher

I don't disagree with the second part, but based on what we have seen since he took over, how many additional points from the first six fixtures do you think we would have got if Riza had been in charge?

[The Lone Gunman]

The problem is, our record since Riza was appointed has us well above the bottom three.

https://www.twtd.co.uk/league-tables...home-and-away/

I chose the Jacks at random to look at the records of other sides below us during the period that table covers. In that particular date range, Swansea have played Leeds twice, Sheffield United twice, Burnley twice and Sunderland once. City, meanwhile, have played the top four teams only once each since Riza took over (and lost all four games).

I don't think a table like this has any real merit. If a table was produced that included only the results from equivalent matches against the same opponents (if that makes sense), I doubt City would be 16th.

For instance, City's record in that date range includes a home game against Plymouth but omits a home game against Leeds, while Swansea's record includes a home game against Leeds but omits a home game against Plymouth.

[The Lone Gunman]

A further example is that date range includes the results of home games for City against the other four bottom sides - Plymouth, Luton, Hull and Derby.

Swansea's record for the same period only includes a home game against Luton - they are yet to play at home to Plymouth, Hull or Derby.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

I don't disagree with the second part, but based on what we have seen since he took over, how many additional points from the first six fixtures do you think we would have got if Riza had been in charge?

I think a few, who knows. It's hard to say after the rot set in but I think we'd have got a result in 1 of those games. Again, it's a question we'll never know the answer to but Bulut and Riza are two terrible managers and their appointments, as well as the club's horrendous recruitment has finally caught up with us.

[the other bob wilson]

The problem with that particular table is that it takes no account of the opposition.

City have thus far won just two away games this season. Those victories were against the teams currently 11th and 9th in the table, while the home victories have come against sides who are currently ranked no higher than 10th.

Based on everything we've seen so far this season, how many extra points do you reckon City would have gained from the first six matches if Riza had also been in charge for those? I think an additional two points is probably optimistic.

Who knows, it’s impossible to tell. Im trying to deal in facts amongst a deluge of opinions. These are all facts.

1. We made the worst start in the history of the club by taking one point in seven games with the last defeat coming while Riza was in charge.

2. We have thirty nine points from thirty three games with Riza in charge - that’s well above the bottom three over that period and equates to something like fifty six points over a season.

3. We have two 1-0 wins all season and have kept two clean sheets in our last twenty seven matches - that last stat in particular is relegation form surely.

4. Forty three goals scored in thirty nine games isn’t great, but forty two from thirty three under Riza is certainly competitive by the low scoring standards of this season’s Championship. - we’re the eighth highest scorers in the division since Riza took over. That comes down to about sixty scored in a season, nothing spectacular, but better than you’d expect from a relegation side.

5. The obvious counter to point 4 is that only Plymouth and Luton have let in more than us since Riza took over from Bulut.

That’s a mixed bag and Im not claiming that Riza has done a great job,far from it. However, I disagree with the argument that we are where we are because of Riza and that this is a squad of players that would be comfortable in mid table were it not for the manager - this squad is weak mentally and physically, ordinary in execution from and ineffective offensively and defensively when it comes to set pieces and clearly not good enough at keeping the ball out of our net. Any manager that kept a team with those weaknesses up after they’d made a club record worst start to a season would be deserving of some credit surely?