Government Minister Resignation

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A Labour minister has walked out tonight over government welfare reforms

I hope this is the start of starmer getting his marching orders from his party , so many people have had enough already

Emily Thornberry who herself is often living in pseudo intellectual land was on newsnight just now and to be fair to her was hardly defending her government

[Eric Cartman]

Fair play to her for being honest about her feelings and taking the personal hit for standing by them but I can't help but think the crucial part of her statement that is completely missed by most people who are against this bill is that the UK has a massive looming problem in not just welfare spending but the amount of people who are out of work/not looking for work and no plan to deal with it.

I personally can't square the circle of benefit cuts whilst giving the winter fuel allowance back to a pensioner with an income of 34,999 but that doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done. 'we should be helping people into work' is one of these hollow ever-present statements that rattle around UK politics without any substance so I don't feel like that is a get out clause.

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Fair play to her for being honest about her feelings and taking the personal hit for standing by them but I can't help but think the crucial part of her statement that is completely missed by most people who are against this bill is that the UK has a massive looming problem in not just welfare spending but the amount of people who are out of work/not looking for work and no plan to deal with it.

I personally can't square the circle of benefit cuts whilst giving the winter fuel allowance back to a pensioner with an income of 34,999 but that doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done. 'we should be helping people into work' is one of these hollow ever-present statements that rattle around UK politics without any substance so I don't feel like that is a get out clause.

PIP is not an out of work benefit

The reform around that is laughable

Its basically telling people who were disabled last week that this week they are not disabled enough so we are taking half your income away

If you would be happy facing that with whatever responsibilities in life you have then you must be a robot

The gradual reduction in winter fuel payments to those who could afford it could be argued to be a sensible long term plan if administered properly.....but it was a complete disaster

If PIP was means tested that could be a winner but slashing away most of the benefit , right across the board is staggeringly stupid

PIP is nothing to do with the ability to work ..its to do with how a health condition or disability affects you

And like Liz Kendal you have made exactly the same comments about people not in work when PIP is absolutely nothing to do with that

Its disingenuous, false , completely misleading and is going to lead to appalling problems and slash the number of Labour MPs even further

[Eric Cartman]

PIP is not an out of work benefit

The reform around that is laughable

Its basically telling people who were disabled last week that this week they are not disabled enough so we are taking half your income away

If you would be happy facing that with whatever responsibilities in life you have then you must be a robot

The gradual reduction in winter fuel payments to those who could afford it could be argued to be a sensible long term plan if administered properly.....but it was a complete disaster

If PIP was means tested that could be a winner but slashing away most of the benefit , right across the board is staggeringly stupid

PIP is nothing to do with the ability to work ..its to do with how a health condition or disability affects you

And like Liz Kendal you have made exactly the same comments about people not in work when PIP is absolutely nothing to do with that

Its disingenuous, false , completely misleading and is going to lead to appalling problems and slash the number of Labour MPs even further

Yeah that is a fair point and distinction.

I am broadly in favour of means testing pip but I'd imagine they have run the numbers and come to the conclusion that means testing isn't going to save much at all because richer people aren't bothering to jump through the hoops to claim it. This is part of my concern about the government really, essentially that everything is done based on a balance sheet with savings one side and 'negative political capital' on the other side, my support for the WFA allowance change was really just based upon fairness and their comms and subsequent U-turn make it pretty clear that they aren't thinking much about systemic changes to make the whole system fairer.

I suppose it's probably worth reflecting at times And much of my support for benefits bill has come from the 'running the numbers' (at a very basic level), which removes the human element entirely and probably isn't great.

I am at a bit of a loss as to what I think the government should/shouldn't do about the looming crisis and tbh reading the whips resignation, I don't think any of the people voting against it have any great ideas either, they just don't want to be complicit in this (which is fair enough I guess), it doesn't really lead us anywhere though. We have had 14 years of chronic can kicking and the Tories who were promoting the idea of low migration and less people on relying on welfare have left the exact opposite. I do wish labour would make more of that, rather than constantly blabbering about the 'black hole' in the finances, which is definitely not landing.

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Yeah that is a fair point and distinction.

I am broadly in favour of means testing pip but I'd imagine they have run the numbers and come to the conclusion that means testing isn't going to save much at all because richer people aren't bothering to jump through the hoops to claim it. This is part of my concern about the government really, essentially that everything is done based on a balance sheet with savings one side and 'negative political capital' on the other side, my support for the WFA allowance change was really just based upon fairness and their comms and subsequent U-turn make it pretty clear that they aren't thinking much about systemic changes to make the whole system fairer.

I suppose it's probably worth reflecting at times And much of my support for benefits bill has come from the 'running the numbers' (at a very basic level), which removes the human element entirely and probably isn't great.

I am at a bit of a loss as to what I think the government should/shouldn't do about the looming crisis and tbh reading the whips resignation, I don't think any of the people voting against it have any great ideas either, they just don't want to be complicit in this (which is fair enough I guess), it doesn't really lead us anywhere though. We have had 14 years of chronic can kicking and the Tories who were promoting the idea of low migration and less people on relying on welfare have left the exact opposite. I do wish labour would make more of that, rather than constantly blabbering about the 'black hole' in the finances, which is definitely not landing.

123 rebels so far

He hasn't got a clue

[Eric Cartman]

I still don't get how a bill can simultaneously be so damaging to severely disabled people and at the time not actually result in a real terms cut to spending.

Are we actually just spreading it too thin? Too many people claiming 'something' and not enough going to people who need it the most?

I try to steer clear of anecdotes/specifics but struggling to find data that provides any insight.

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I still don't get how a bill can simultaneously be so damaging to severely disabled people and at the time not actually result in a real terms cut to spending.

Are we actually just spreading it too thin? Too many people claiming 'something' and not enough going to people who need it the most?

I try to steer clear of anecdotes/specifics but struggling to find data that provides any insight.

The savings are 5 billion up to 2030 , that's a small part of the welfare budget

You would expect whole sale changes based on reducing the number of claiments and target support to provide far more than that

[Dorcus]

The savings are 5 billion up to 2030 , that's a small part of the welfare budget

You would expect whole sale changes based on reducing the number of claiments and target support to provide far more than that

And it's all designed to build a war chest to satisfy Trump

[Eric Cartman]

And it's all designed to build a war chest to satisfy Trump

Is that meant to be a joke?

Even with this bill, spending on disability benefits is due to rise massively between now and the end of this parliament after rising massively since COVID. It doesn't free up any money.

Despite Starmer responding to questions earlier saying they are pushing ahead, I can't see them letting this vote happen if they can't win it comfortably with government votes. Optically they are better off pulling the bill than relying on Tory support.

[JamesWales]

Eric do you think the vote will be pulled?

I can't remember exactly what they said but on the Daily Politics today on BBC2 they outlined how unprecedented a defeat at this stage would be. First one since 1986 or something remarkable.

I cant see it myself. I think the party will pull rank and it will pass

[Eric Cartman]

Eric do you think the vote will be pulled?

I can't remember exactly what they said but on the Daily Politics today on BBC2 they outlined how unprecedented a defeat at this stage would be. First one since 1986 or something remarkable.

I cant see it myself. I think the party will pull rank and it will pass

I don't know but it will be a messy few days. I just can't see there being any good outcome for Starmer here, they pull rank and burn goodwill, even if they win the vote it gets kicked back and forth between the commons and the lords, and rightly so as it isn't a manifesto pledge.

I think they should pull it and have another go at putting together something more palatable to their own party but obviously its another episode of perceived incompetence. Unfortunately a lot of rebel MPs know that something needs to be done but don't have the stomach to do it. I think hyperbole has taken over already.

Never going to happen because it would be mental but if Starmer did want to throw his weight around, treating any loss as a loss of confidence in the government and committing to call a general election if he loses would get quite a few labour MPs feeling a bit twitchy.