Government Minister Resignation

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

A Labour minister has walked out tonight over government welfare reforms

I hope this is the start of starmer getting his marching orders from his party , so many people have had enough already

Emily Thornberry who herself is often living in pseudo intellectual land was on newsnight just now and to be fair to her was hardly defending her government

[Eric Cartman]

Fair play to her for being honest about her feelings and taking the personal hit for standing by them but I can't help but think the crucial part of her statement that is completely missed by most people who are against this bill is that the UK has a massive looming problem in not just welfare spending but the amount of people who are out of work/not looking for work and no plan to deal with it.

I personally can't square the circle of benefit cuts whilst giving the winter fuel allowance back to a pensioner with an income of 34,999 but that doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done. 'we should be helping people into work' is one of these hollow ever-present statements that rattle around UK politics without any substance so I don't feel like that is a get out clause.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Fair play to her for being honest about her feelings and taking the personal hit for standing by them but I can't help but think the crucial part of her statement that is completely missed by most people who are against this bill is that the UK has a massive looming problem in not just welfare spending but the amount of people who are out of work/not looking for work and no plan to deal with it.

I personally can't square the circle of benefit cuts whilst giving the winter fuel allowance back to a pensioner with an income of 34,999 but that doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done. 'we should be helping people into work' is one of these hollow ever-present statements that rattle around UK politics without any substance so I don't feel like that is a get out clause.

PIP is not an out of work benefit

The reform around that is laughable

Its basically telling people who were disabled last week that this week they are not disabled enough so we are taking half your income away

If you would be happy facing that with whatever responsibilities in life you have then you must be a robot

The gradual reduction in winter fuel payments to those who could afford it could be argued to be a sensible long term plan if administered properly.....but it was a complete disaster

If PIP was means tested that could be a winner but slashing away most of the benefit , right across the board is staggeringly stupid

PIP is nothing to do with the ability to work ..its to do with how a health condition or disability affects you

And like Liz Kendal you have made exactly the same comments about people not in work when PIP is absolutely nothing to do with that

Its disingenuous, false , completely misleading and is going to lead to appalling problems and slash the number of Labour MPs even further

[Eric Cartman]

PIP is not an out of work benefit

The reform around that is laughable

Its basically telling people who were disabled last week that this week they are not disabled enough so we are taking half your income away

If you would be happy facing that with whatever responsibilities in life you have then you must be a robot

The gradual reduction in winter fuel payments to those who could afford it could be argued to be a sensible long term plan if administered properly.....but it was a complete disaster

If PIP was means tested that could be a winner but slashing away most of the benefit , right across the board is staggeringly stupid

PIP is nothing to do with the ability to work ..its to do with how a health condition or disability affects you

And like Liz Kendal you have made exactly the same comments about people not in work when PIP is absolutely nothing to do with that

Its disingenuous, false , completely misleading and is going to lead to appalling problems and slash the number of Labour MPs even further

Yeah that is a fair point and distinction.

I am broadly in favour of means testing pip but I'd imagine they have run the numbers and come to the conclusion that means testing isn't going to save much at all because richer people aren't bothering to jump through the hoops to claim it. This is part of my concern about the government really, essentially that everything is done based on a balance sheet with savings one side and 'negative political capital' on the other side, my support for the WFA allowance change was really just based upon fairness and their comms and subsequent U-turn make it pretty clear that they aren't thinking much about systemic changes to make the whole system fairer.

I suppose it's probably worth reflecting at times And much of my support for benefits bill has come from the 'running the numbers' (at a very basic level), which removes the human element entirely and probably isn't great.

I am at a bit of a loss as to what I think the government should/shouldn't do about the looming crisis and tbh reading the whips resignation, I don't think any of the people voting against it have any great ideas either, they just don't want to be complicit in this (which is fair enough I guess), it doesn't really lead us anywhere though. We have had 14 years of chronic can kicking and the Tories who were promoting the idea of low migration and less people on relying on welfare have left the exact opposite. I do wish labour would make more of that, rather than constantly blabbering about the 'black hole' in the finances, which is definitely not landing.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Yeah that is a fair point and distinction.

I am broadly in favour of means testing pip but I'd imagine they have run the numbers and come to the conclusion that means testing isn't going to save much at all because richer people aren't bothering to jump through the hoops to claim it. This is part of my concern about the government really, essentially that everything is done based on a balance sheet with savings one side and 'negative political capital' on the other side, my support for the WFA allowance change was really just based upon fairness and their comms and subsequent U-turn make it pretty clear that they aren't thinking much about systemic changes to make the whole system fairer.

I suppose it's probably worth reflecting at times And much of my support for benefits bill has come from the 'running the numbers' (at a very basic level), which removes the human element entirely and probably isn't great.

I am at a bit of a loss as to what I think the government should/shouldn't do about the looming crisis and tbh reading the whips resignation, I don't think any of the people voting against it have any great ideas either, they just don't want to be complicit in this (which is fair enough I guess), it doesn't really lead us anywhere though. We have had 14 years of chronic can kicking and the Tories who were promoting the idea of low migration and less people on relying on welfare have left the exact opposite. I do wish labour would make more of that, rather than constantly blabbering about the 'black hole' in the finances, which is definitely not landing.

123 rebels so far

He hasn't got a clue

[Eric Cartman]

I still don't get how a bill can simultaneously be so damaging to severely disabled people and at the time not actually result in a real terms cut to spending.

Are we actually just spreading it too thin? Too many people claiming 'something' and not enough going to people who need it the most?

I try to steer clear of anecdotes/specifics but struggling to find data that provides any insight.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I still don't get how a bill can simultaneously be so damaging to severely disabled people and at the time not actually result in a real terms cut to spending.

Are we actually just spreading it too thin? Too many people claiming 'something' and not enough going to people who need it the most?

I try to steer clear of anecdotes/specifics but struggling to find data that provides any insight.

The savings are 5 billion up to 2030 , that's a small part of the welfare budget

You would expect whole sale changes based on reducing the number of claiments and target support to provide far more than that

[Dorcus]

The savings are 5 billion up to 2030 , that's a small part of the welfare budget

You would expect whole sale changes based on reducing the number of claiments and target support to provide far more than that

And it's all designed to build a war chest to satisfy Trump

[Eric Cartman]

And it's all designed to build a war chest to satisfy Trump

Is that meant to be a joke?

Even with this bill, spending on disability benefits is due to rise massively between now and the end of this parliament after rising massively since COVID. It doesn't free up any money.

Despite Starmer responding to questions earlier saying they are pushing ahead, I can't see them letting this vote happen if they can't win it comfortably with government votes. Optically they are better off pulling the bill than relying on Tory support.

[JamesWales]

Eric do you think the vote will be pulled?

I can't remember exactly what they said but on the Daily Politics today on BBC2 they outlined how unprecedented a defeat at this stage would be. First one since 1986 or something remarkable.

I cant see it myself. I think the party will pull rank and it will pass

[Eric Cartman]

Eric do you think the vote will be pulled?

I can't remember exactly what they said but on the Daily Politics today on BBC2 they outlined how unprecedented a defeat at this stage would be. First one since 1986 or something remarkable.

I cant see it myself. I think the party will pull rank and it will pass

I don't know but it will be a messy few days. I just can't see there being any good outcome for Starmer here, they pull rank and burn goodwill, even if they win the vote it gets kicked back and forth between the commons and the lords, and rightly so as it isn't a manifesto pledge.

I think they should pull it and have another go at putting together something more palatable to their own party but obviously its another episode of perceived incompetence. Unfortunately a lot of rebel MPs know that something needs to be done but don't have the stomach to do it, so I don't think that will get us anywhere. I think hyperbole has taken over already.

Never going to happen because it would be mental but if Starmer did want to throw his weight around, treating any loss as a loss of confidence in the government and committing to call a general election if he loses would get quite a few labour MPs feeling a bit twitchy.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Eric do you think the vote will be pulled?

I can't remember exactly what they said but on the Daily Politics today on BBC2 they outlined how unprecedented a defeat at this stage would be. First one since 1986 or something remarkable.

I cant see it myself. I think the party will pull rank and it will pass

Huge changes , hes going to be lynched by his own troops unless he shapes up pronto

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Eric do you think the vote will be pulled?

I can't remember exactly what they said but on the Daily Politics today on BBC2 they outlined how unprecedented a defeat at this stage would be. First one since 1986 or something remarkable.

I cant see it myself. I think the party will pull rank and it will pass

Huge changes , hes going to be lynched by his own troops unless he shapes up pronto

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Eric do you think the vote will be pulled?

I can't remember exactly what they said but on the Daily Politics today on BBC2 they outlined how unprecedented a defeat at this stage would be. First one since 1986 or something remarkable.

I cant see it myself. I think the party will pull rank and it will pass

Huge changes , hes going to be lynched by his own troops unless he shapes up pronto

[Heathblue]

Huge changes , hes going to be lynched by his own troops unless he shapes up pronto

he should be able to hide himself away amongst the island of strangers. Your guy is really shining isn't he ?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

he should be able to hide himself away amongst the island of strangers. Your guy is really shining isn't he ?

Its nonsense

I have gone green 💚

[jon1959]

A damning attack by my MP:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...u-turn-starmer

[the other bob wilson]

Nothing wrong with a Government that occasionally realises the error of its ways and makes a u turn, but this awful Prime Minister, backed by his disaster of a Chancellor have done so on three of its headline policies now - this shows the seriously poor political judgement at its heart. Starmer has now said he regrets his nation of strangers remark and he wouldn’t have done so if he knew the connotations behind it - what a terrible admission to have to make and what an indictment of him and the people close to him who are supposed to advise him on such matters.

[Dorcus]

Nothing wrong with a Government that occasionally realises the error of its ways and makes a u turn, but this awful Prime Minister, backed by his disaster of a Chancellor have done so on three of its headline policies now - this shows the seriously poor political judgement at its heart. Starmer has now said he regrets his nation of strangers remark and he wouldn’t have done so if he knew the connotations behind it - what a terrible admission to have to make and what an indictment of him and the people close to him who are supposed to advise him on such matters.

It was an appalling remark and hiding behind ignorance only shows him in an even worse light.

[Heathblue]

With my childish sense of humor, I'll admit that ive been having a chuckle at the unhinged extreme lefties of CCMB criticizing their PM and having to realise that they voted for someone further right than the grifter in chief otherwise known as Nigel Farage, nice discernment guys better luck at the next election

[Eric Cartman]

Similar to WFA, the u-turn is actually worse than the original policy.

I don't understand how anybody could justify what they seem to have settled on.

I have tried to read as much as possible about this but I'm tired of wading through hyperbole. I have settled on the following:

- I don't think the average person who is against welfare reform has actually absorbed the spending projections and has any idea where we are heading.

- I don't understand why pip is administered by the DWP.

As for the calls for a pause and a 'risk assessment' (I.e. kick the can down the road). What is the risk of doing nothing? A ballooning bill, a future government that is united on welfare 'reform', that sees it as easy pickings and overreacts.

It's probably worth saying that I am not convinced labour were doing this for the right reasons, i.e. they were more interesting in balance the books than getting it right.

Jon's guardian article was interesting to me, she applied for pip and didn't get it, the article made clear her daily struggles. Essentially, if you take everything at face value, you have to believe that the 3.5+ million people who claim PIP are worse off than that... I don't think I do, the system is broken, money is spread too thin.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Similar to WFA, the u-turn is actually worse than the original policy.

I don't understand how anybody could justify what they seem to have settled on.

I have tried to read as much as possible about this but I'm tired of wading through hyperbole. I have settled on the following:

- I don't think the average person who is against welfare reform has actually absorbed the spending projections and has any idea where we are heading.

- I don't understand why pip is administered by the DWP.

As for the calls for a pause and a 'risk assessment' (I.e. kick the can down the road). What is the risk of doing nothing? A ballooning bill, a future government that is united on welfare 'reform', that sees it as easy pickings and overreacts.

It's probably worth saying that I am not convinced labour were doing this for the right reasons, i.e. they were more interesting in balance the books than getting it right.

Jon's guardian article was interesting to me, she applied for pip and didn't get it, the article made clear her daily struggles. Essentially, if you take everything at face value, you have to believe that the 3.5+ million people who claim PIP are worse off than that... I don't think I do, the system is broken, money is spread too thin.

Starmer needs toppling

This is by far his biggest screw up

Taking 200 quid off the pensioners was handled incredibly badly ....it should have been phased in

The initial proposal for welfare was that someone with a registered disability would lose 5 grand .....not 200 quid ....a year .....because although they remain disabled.....the computer says no

Less money , a freeze for a few years .....compromise could have been reached

But it was a severe attack and the rebel labour MPs rightly told him to stuff it

But he and his team have just sold the ones who have backed down a dead fish

Because whilst those already disabled are protected ....till their next assessment .....and then possibly cut adrift .......anyone out there who becomes disabled in the next two years .....stroke , car crash , sepsis , accident at work , meningitis.......has to somehow be more disabled .....need more points ...to get support than the ones who get it now

Even worse

Those who have kids or loved ones......dont have an accident , have a stroke ....because this bill will crap on you from a great height

I hope this brings him and the rest of the chancers .....Reeves, Rayner , Timms , Cooper ......down and as soon as possible the rest of the party elect a decent leader , before its too late

Worry about saving money at another time , this is absolutely appalling behaviour from Labour

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

A damning attack by my MP:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...u-turn-starmer

Get him gone

[Dorcus]

Get him gone

He should never have got involved in politics.

[Eric Cartman]

He should never have got involved in politics.

He probably shares that view with you right now.