Kneecap

[JamesWales]

Another comment on proscription: Hamas's military wing was proscribed by the UK government in 2001. The whole of Hamas (that is the whole civil structure that was embedded in Gaza and provided administrative, policing, financial, sewerage/water/power jobs) was not proscribed until 2021.

What changed between 2001 and 2021?

One thing that changed was that Priti Patel became Home Secretary after being forced to resign in 2017 for running a private foreign policy that involved secret meetings in Israel with the Netanyahu government.

Call me cynical but I believe that the decision in 2021 to proscribe the whole of Hamas (and labelling everyone associated with them in any way as terrorist) was done at the request of Benjamin Netanyahu, not because some objective assessment had changed.

But it enables Netanyahu to label doctors and journalists as terrorists, and for you to be a little echo of that! Thankfully the majority of the world refuses to go down that route.

Slipping into conspiracy theories here Jon. They are prescribed by the EU too, which I am pretty sure don't listen to Priti Patel.

Hamas did kill hundreds of innocent people at a festival. They do believe in the destruction of Israel, they are deeply racist Holocaust deniers. The history of the conflict didn't begin when you said it did, and whilst there is always complex back stories, the law is the law, no?

We can all argue that one group or other should or shouldn't be proscribed, just as people can argue a slap is or isn't assault, or drink sex is or isn't consensual etc etc etc. I think in giving some of the context you are absolutely right, but that doesn't change the law.

The law is where the law is. We have enough accusations of "two tier" justice as it is, and now you seem to be flirting with the idea of treating some differently? Apologies If I've misinterpreted that. If an influential figure on the right - Say Tommy Robinson - held up the flag of a banned far-right group and told his adoring fans to kill MPs (even if he said it was in jest) and said "Up [that group]" etc we all know you would have a very different view on it.

[jon1959]

Slipping into conspiracy theories here Jon. They are prescribed by the EU too, which I am pretty sure don't listen to Priti Patel.

Hamas did kill hundreds of innocent people at a festival. They do believe in the destruction of Israel, they are deeply racist Holocaust deniers. The history of the conflict didn't begin when you said it did, and whilst there is always complex back stories, the law is the law, no?

We can all argue that one group or other should or shouldn't be proscribed, just as people can argue a slap is or isn't assault, or drink sex is or isn't consensual etc etc etc. I think in giving some of the context you are absolutely right, but that doesn't change the law.

The law is where the law is. We have enough accusations of "two tier" justice as it is, and now you seem to be flirting with the idea of treating some differently? Apologies If I've misinterpreted that. If an influential figure on the right - Say Tommy Robinson - held up the flag of a banned far-right group and told his adoring fans to kill MPs (even if he said it was in jest) and said "Up [that group]" etc we all know you would have a very different view on it.

Yes, the law is the law. It is very clear on proscribed groups.

It is a criminal offence for a person in the UK to:

- belong to a proscribed organisation;
- invite support for a proscribed organisation;
- recklessly express support for a proscribed organisation;
- arrange a meeting in support of a proscribed organisation;
- wear clothing or carry articles in public which arouse reasonable suspicion that an individual is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation; or
- publish an image of an article such as a flag or logo in the same circumstances.

That is why Liam Óg Ó hAnnaidh has been charged. He has probably broken the law. The penalty could be up to 14 years in prison.

My point on that was to compare and contrast his actions and those potential sanctions to the actions and likely consequences for the perpetrators and enablers of genocide. I'm not OK with that. I don't defend or support any of the UK's proscribed organisations (they are violent, reactionary and repressive), but those with the greatest blood on their hands are seemingly in the clear!

For the record the EU doesn't have the same proscription process as nation states, but it did include the whole of Hamas in its' sanctions regime from 2003. I don't think that has any relevance to the decision of the UK government to step up its proscription in 2021. Between 2001 and 2021 the broader Hamas movement was not proscribed by the UK government (its military wing and arguably its political leadership was). Something changed in 2021. Despite your concern about conspiracy theories, I think that something was Priti Patel.

[jon1959]

Whilst all this was going on Netanyahu continued to ensure financial and political support for Hamas in Gaza - to undermine the secular Fatah/PLO and to ensure that Two States and the 'peace process' were off the table.

European and American proscription of the organisation played into that strategy. It blew up in his face with 7 October 2023 and is just one reason why he is facing the scale and depth of opposition he now is in Israel, and why he resists an investigation so strongly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...ftali%20Bennet.

[HiVis]

My point on that was to compare and contrast his actions and those potential sanctions to the actions and likely consequences for the perpetrators and enablers of genocide. I'm not OK with that. I don't defend or support any of the UK's proscribed organisations (they are violent, reactionary and repressive), but those with the greatest blood on their hands are seemingly in the clear!

I'd like to think that the majority of moderates would agree with this statement, but what exactly are you expecting the UK state or individual people to do apropos of Israel and their actions?

[jon1959]

I'd like to think that the majority of moderates would agree with this statement, but what exactly are you expecting the UK state or individual people to do apropos of Israel and their actions?

Stop supplying arms and RAF fly-over intelligence. Recognise a Palestinian state. Confirm the UK will enforce the decisions of the ICC and ICJ. Use position on the Security Council to push for suspension of Israel from the UN (there is a case for expulsion - but that has never been done). Massively increase sanctions on Israeli government and IDF members. Push multilateral action via UN, EU and other international bodies to increase the political and economic cost of the continued genocide. Use the very limited leverage the UK has (but it is greater with France, Spain, Norway, Ireland, Canada, Australia, and the majority of other countries) to push Trump into cutting Netanyahu loose (although granted the normal levers won't work with him). Start the process of mapping out a future political settlement for Israel/Palestine via recognised international bodies - one that provides peace, security and dignity for all the people in Israel/Palestine and the wider region, wherever lines get drawn on a map. For a start.....

[HiVis]

Stop supplying arms and RAF fly-over intelligence. Recognise a Palestinian state. Confirm the UK will enforce the decisions of the ICC and ICJ. Use position on the Security Council to push for suspension of Israel from the UN (there is a case for expulsion - but that has never been done). Massively increase sanctions on Israeli government and IDF members. Push multilateral action via UN, EU and other international bodies to increase the political and economic cost of the continued genocide. Use the very limited leverage the UK has (but it is greater with France, Spain, Norway, Ireland, Canada, Australia, and the majority of other countries) to push Trump into cutting Netanyahu loose (although granted the normal levers won't work with him). Start the process of mapping out a future political settlement for Israel/Palestine via recognised international bodies - one that provides peace, security and dignity for all the people in Israel/Palestine and the wider region, wherever lines get drawn on a map. For a start.....

But apart from all that, what can be done?

:D

[JamesWales]

Yes, the law is the law. It is very clear on proscribed groups.

It is a criminal offence for a person in the UK to:

- belong to a proscribed organisation;
- invite support for a proscribed organisation;
- recklessly express support for a proscribed organisation;
- arrange a meeting in support of a proscribed organisation;
- wear clothing or carry articles in public which arouse reasonable suspicion that an individual is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation; or
- publish an image of an article such as a flag or logo in the same circumstances.

That is why Liam Óg Ó hAnnaidh has been charged. He has probably broken the law. The penalty could be up to 14 years in prison.

My point on that was to compare and contrast his actions and those potential sanctions to the actions and likely consequences for the perpetrators and enablers of genocide. I'm not OK with that. I don't defend or support any of the UK's proscribed organisations (they are violent, reactionary and repressive), but those with the greatest blood on their hands are seemingly in the clear!

For the record the EU doesn't have the same proscription process as nation states, but it did include the whole of Hamas in its' sanctions regime from 2003. I don't think that has any relevance to the decision of the UK government to step up its proscription in 2021. Between 2001 and 2021 the broader Hamas movement was not proscribed by the UK government (its military wing and arguably its political leadership was). Something changed in 2021. Despite your concern about conspiracy theories, I think that something was Priti Patel.

Yeah and it's a fair point, and many will agree to varying levels about the various international conflicts that are clearly of much greater importance and scale.

But that doesn't mean the law doesn't apply to all. There are clear precedents on what are and aren't proscribed groups and also clear precedents where incitement (on or offline) leads to sentences despite there being a much bigger issue at play which many would sympathise with. It's also pretty unambiguous what waving a flag and shouting "up" something means. That's why I think their bombastic response was also wrong.

The maximum sentence would be obscene but I really don't see how this isn't a fascinating test of a legal system that many have less faith than they used to in.

[Jordi Culé]

Fanfuuckingtastic to see Sir Keir give his opinion on the Kneecap/Glastonbury discussion whilst doing it through The fuucking Sun.

Just when you think he couldn't possibly make himself look a bigger cuunt.

[the other bob wilson]

Fanfuuckingtastic to see Sir Keir give his opinion on the Kneecap/Glastonbury discussion whilst doing it through The fuucking Sun.

Just when you think he couldn't possibly make himself look a bigger cuunt.

An utterly predictable, and lamentable, response from him to the American actions overnight as well.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq53l41gl8jo

[JamesWales]

He was asked a question by The Sun, so he has to answer it (or look like a toddler). He could have said they have a right to perform whilst a trial is ongoing, which is true. But many of us have seen the videos of him waving a flag and shouting "Up Hamas" so I don't see how Starmer can say anything else. If he had then the "two-tier" arguments would have come back with a vengeance

I'm not sure what people expect him to say in response to bombing the Iran nuclear sites either?

I'm no great fan of Starmer but I think as a statesman he's actually not bad

[jon1959]

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...e-bbc-confirms

[jon1959]

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...lastonbury-set

[jon1959]

A review of the set:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...tonbury-review

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...lastonbury-set

[JamesWales]

Five stars from the guardian. What a surprise 😂

[Wash DC Blue]

Are they any good?
I read that they were a parody like GLC.

[Wales-Bales]

What type of music do Hubcap make?

[DINGO COOPER]

Are they any good?
I read that they were a parody like GLC.

They are superb, not a parody at all.

[JamesWales]

They are good. There's a comic element to some of their output (including the film) but they aren't a parody. The issue most definitely isn't the music, it's their commentary. Yesterday they still managed to refer to Rod Stewart as "Rod the Prod". Maybe that's funny, but if its funny if someone uses a derogatory word against other religions.

Th band on stage before them (Bob Vylan) is also very good - I was raised on Rage Against the Machine who they basically sound like a tribute act of- but they will likely face an investigation now after leading chants calling for "Death to the IDF"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c33514nryy1o

Sounds like there was a lot of good music but also a lot of genuine hatred in that arena yesterday.

[stevo]

Worth repeating this here for those that didn’t follow it from the Hamas thread…

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org...cles-for-you_1

[HiVis]

They are superb, not a parody at all.

They are utter gash, hence why they need all the publicity to get their name known.

[Jordi Culé]

They are good. There's a comic element to some of their output (including the film) but they aren't a parody. The issue most definitely isn't the music, it's their commentary. Yesterday they still managed to refer to Rod Stewart as "Rod the Prod". Maybe that's funny, but if its funny if someone uses a derogatory word against other religions.

Th band on stage before them (Bob Vylan) is also very good - I was raised on Rage Against the Machine who they basically sound like a tribute act of- but they will likely face an investigation now after leading chants calling for "Death to the IDF"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c33514nryy1o

Sounds like there was a lot of good music but also a lot of genuine hatred in that arena yesterday.

On my last shindig in Belfast on sale were 'Proud to be Proddy' assorted crap.

I'm not sure it's the derogatory term you feel it is?

Bob Vylan, I'd imagine could be getting a knock on the door.

[JamesWales]

On my last shindig in Belfast on sale were 'Proud to be Proddy' assorted crap.

I'm not sure it's the derogatory term you feel it is?

Bob Vylan, I'd imagine could be getting a knock on the door.

Yeah there's a few words that have a different meaning depending on who says it. Rod Stewart is Catholic apparently, but raised Protestant. There's a few Celtic fans who don't like him cos he's not pure enough in his views though.

That's what I don't like about them. They are just dripping in sectarianism wherever you turn. That's not illegal of course, but it's unsavoury and part of the problem, not the solution. The Hezbollah flags and shouting up Hamas / talking about dead MPs is an ongoing legal matter of course and something different again.

I think what the singer from Bob Vylan did was absolutely stupid and really made me wince actually and interesting to see Emily Eavis condemn it. Not the publicity they want I think, as whilst Glastonbury is criticized and mocked a little sometimes, it's vibe is fundamentally about peace and love and tolerance, not hate speech.

[HiVis]

Yeah there's a few words that have a different meaning depending on who says it. Rod Stewart is Catholic apparently, but raised Protestant. There's a few Celtic fans who don't like him cos he's not pure enough in his views though.

That's what I don't like about them. They are just dripping in sectarianism wherever you turn. That's not illegal of course, but it's unsavoury and part of the problem, not the solution. The Hezbollah flags and shouting up Hamas / talking about dead MPs is an ongoing legal matter of course and something different again.

I think what the singer from Bob Vylan did was absolutely stupid and really made me wince actually and interesting to see Emily Eavis condemn it. Not the publicity they want I think, as whilst Glastonbury is criticized and mocked a little sometimes, it's vibe is fundamentally about peace and love and tolerance, not hate speech.

You watch the Eavis family tighten up on political speeches in future. If Vylan are charged (and they should be), Eavis will need to provide a statement to the police, which they will not appreciate.

[Jordi Culé]

Yeah there's a few words that have a different meaning depending on who says it. Rod Stewart is Catholic apparently, but raised Protestant. There's a few Celtic fans who don't like him cos he's not pure enough in his views though.

That's what I don't like about them. They are just dripping in sectarianism wherever you turn. That's not illegal of course, but it's unsavoury and part of the problem, not the solution. The Hezbollah flags and shouting up Hamas / talking about dead MPs is an ongoing legal matter of course and something different again.

I think what the singer from Bob Vylan did was absolutely stupid and really made me wince actually and interesting to see Emily Eavis condemn it. Not the publicity they want I think, as whilst Glastonbury is criticized and mocked a little sometimes, it's vibe is fundamentally about peace and love and tolerance, not hate speech.

Rod Stewart's been deemed a massive **** since his support of Enoch Powell in the 70s, he wasn't alone mind cause Eric Clapton was another.

The fact Rod supports Celtic with all the political baggage some of their support carry must grip those same supporters.

He probably would've felt more at home supporting Rangers (joke Jimmy the Jock).

Shouldn't Rod have supported Arsenal?

As for Kneecap, I got them down as satirical, sometimes comedic rather than sectarian. They certainly use parody to highlight issues, do they cross the line with some things? I think that depends on your viewpoints.

I've not seen the Hezbollah thing and the issue about dead MPs may well lead to trouble. Whether they meant it or let his mouth run off only they know?

[Heathblue]

Yeah there's a few words that have a different meaning depending on who says it. Rod Stewart is Catholic apparently, but raised Protestant. There's a few Celtic fans who don't like him cos he's not pure enough in his views though.

That's what I don't like about them. They are just dripping in sectarianism wherever you turn. That's not illegal of course, but it's unsavoury and part of the problem, not the solution. The Hezbollah flags and shouting up Hamas / talking about dead MPs is an ongoing legal matter of course and something different again.

I think what the singer from Bob Vylan did was absolutely stupid and really made me wince actually and interesting to see Emily Eavis condemn it. Not the publicity they want I think, as whilst Glastonbury is criticized and mocked a little sometimes, it's vibe is fundamentally about peace and love and tolerance, not hate speech.

I've mentioned before I don't like my favorite bands bleating on about politics on stage, this guy intentionally was getting some notoriety and he's succeeded his words were awful but there is a but for me on this, the politicians of the UK, America, Europe have failed a race of people who have been slaughtered all of my adult life when and how does this stop? If our politicians basically turn a blind eye to it, if British justice is to remain consistent, the guy should do some porridge but the issue is more important than this, an apology to the Jewish people but not the Jewish leadership inc. their security forces should suffice in this instance.