Reply With QuoteI always stick to the facts as I understand them to be, and I've never been any good at picking sides out of loyalty to some cause or other.Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
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Why? Judging by your comments these days compared to what you were saying earlier in this thread, you don’t believe your BS any more either.Life is tough when even your wingman doesn't believe your BS anymore
I always stick to the facts as I understand them to be, and I've never been any good at picking sides out of loyalty to some cause or other.
🤣 They are never left wing when they fail!
Yeah, I mean the people of Venezuela. They won't all think the same, but what the general reaction is will be absolutely key.
I dont agree with the methods, and it's hugely risky and let's be clear, almost certainly illegal. But I should imagine that millions will be celebrating, particularly those who have fled the country etc.
Venezuela are allies of Putin and China too, so there's a bigger game here I think.
If the people accept it and free elections are incoming then that's what is key here.
The timeline on this so far:
1) Trump says at a press conference that the USA will run the country. He states that the Deputy President, Delcy Rodriguez will assist in this endeavour.
2) Shortly after, he throws the recent Nobel Peace Prize winner and widely believed winner of of the last election, Maria Corina Machado under a bus. Apparently because "she doesn't have the support or respect within the country". Strange thing to say about someone you were arguing was democratically elected but I guess she does have a proper Peace Prize.
3) Delcy Rodriguez, touted earlier as the puppet, goes on national television to state that Maduro is the only legitimate President, he should be returned and Venezuela "will never again be a colony for any empire".
As usual. The bombing bit appears the easy bit but none of this is shouting free elections any time soon!
I hope this becomes Trumps Vietnam and the US is stuck in horrific guerrilla warfare sustaining horrific losses .
Maybe then the nation will wake up.
Another desperate attempt to deflect from the Epstein files. Steal baby, steal
How many body bags per week are you hoping for?
Exactly. What a stupid comment.
All this only works with US and UN backed elections and a clear timetable for them. Even then it may not work.
Pretty Horrible thing to wish for especially since pretty much half of the country would already be against Trump and this action will no doubt disenfranchise MAGA supporters.
I have to be honest, I’ve no idea what the motivation is but I think those who are mentioning oil are very wide of the mark.
If there is rare earth minerals there…that’s another matter.
I’m not buying the Narco Terrorism factor either, especially after former Honduras president, Juan Hernandez pardoned last month.
There does have to be some rhyme or reason…maybe China or Russia were exerting too much influence, too close to The US.
Anyway, wanting to see horrific casualties is pretty low…even for The Real Flashman.
Maybe it's what's needed.
Hopefully some gun toting nut job out there decides not to blow away kids and starts taking out billionaires or MAGA lunatics. I don't believe there was an assignation attempt on trump but wish one had wiped the nonce out.
In 10 years time when the next 9/11 comes along they'll want everyone to weep. You reap what you sow.
And, if it comes to that, who’ll be responsible for it?
You and 9thdrs only have “clever” remarks in response to yesterday’s events, but how is what Trump authorised yesterday different from what you accuse those recent Presidents you despise of?
I know that you aren’t responding to me, Bob, but I don’t think it will come to that.
It shouldn’t have happened though.
My thoughts are generally WTF?
Wishing for mass casualties is shit though, especially considering that if it were to happen the casualties would more than likely be inner city Black/Hispanic lads and lasses along with kids from the rust belt.
Schadenfreude Is a nasty business.
This was aimed at Flashman’ comments btw.
I think "the mask slips" when you see comments like wishing for Venezuela to be contemporary Americas Vietnam. Just like Venezuela is a pawn in Trump and Americas global game, so to it is for many people on the left who just view it as part of a wider ideological, anti-imperial game.
I don't think anyone is comfortable with the methods, bur it really is a case of seeing how the Venezuelan people react here, and what their next move is, which has to be towards free elections.
Exactly, you could have just admitted that years ago
In fairness, Twitter probably hadn't told them what to say on the subject, so there's always going to be that delay.
For me it's not really a wish for death etc. but it kind of has to be 'not quite as easy as this' otherwise the entire world order has changed overnight. America used to feel like they had to build some kind of phoney consensus across the west to do anything remotely controversial. Now it doesn't, it just acts, so why won't it go further? That is a worrying prospect on the horizon.
America doesn't seem to be seeking free elections, they have tossed aside the opposition and are quite happy to work with the existing government in Venezuela as long as they get what they want out of it.
The problem we have is that if someone had said 'Trump is going to fly chinooks into Caracas and kidnap Maduro' last week, the majority of people would have thought that was massive hyperbole/'TDS' etc.. But now that has happened, the same people are going 'hmmm let's see how this works out'. The goalposts of normality are moving every single week. Eventually you find yourself explaining away things that seemed like a straight to video action film plot.
Bit like 'it's not brexit if it fails' right? Or do you choose to believe that one?
People say "let's see what the Venezuelan people make of all this" but they won't get any say in the plundering of their oil reserves by US oil companies. The next Venezuelan government will be a vassal state of the USA or, more accurately Emperor Trump.
😂👍Exactly, you could have just admitted that years ago
They tried to have a say and the result was fixed, no?
Thats never been my position, although some people do claim that "we never had Brexit" just like some claim "it/he/they was never left-wing anyway!".
No, my position is to point out that what's happening here is happening almost everywhere. Ergo, our issues aren't the B word. That's a distraction.
But we shouldn't go off topic here.
Yeah that is a fair point. It's a pretty remarkable - if far from unprecedented - turn of events.
I guess there is a wider philosophical question about whether it is just to do nothing if something bad is happening in another country, and thats a tough one to answer and needs to be balanced with self-determination. For me Venezuela probably hadn't crossed that threshold but let's be honest, none of us know much here about the reality of life for people there.
That why what happens now is key. If the people on balance welcome whats happened and if there's a clear route to elections soon then despite the methods the real life outcomes for people may improve, but it's too soon to tell. Ive still not seen much evidence of widespread public demonstrations like we have seen in Venezuela before or like we saw in Eastern Europe when communism fell for example.
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