The Donald Trump thread

[Eric Cartman]

Thats never been my position, although some people do claim that "we never had Brexit" just like some claim "it/he/they was never left-wing anyway!".

No, my position is to point out that what's happening here is happening almost everywhere. Ergo, our issues aren't the B word. That's a distraction.

But we shouldn't go off topic here.

Yeah but that is a non-starter, restriction of trade is naturally going to hurt both sides and your evidence of 'it not being brexit' is that germany and france are struggling as well.

[Eric Cartman]

Yeah that is a fair point. It's a pretty remarkable - if far from unprecedented - turn of events.

I guess there is a wider philosophical question about whether it is just to do nothing if something bad is happening in another country, and thats a tough one to answer and needs to be balanced with self-determination. For me Venezuela probably hadn't crossed that threshold but let's be honest, none of us know much here about the reality of life for people there.

That why what happens now is key. If the people on balance welcome whats happened and if there's a clear route to elections soon then despite the methods the real life outcomes for people may improve, but it's too soon to tell. Ive still not seen much evidence of widespread public demonstrations like we have seen in Venezuela before or like we saw in Eastern Europe when communism fell for example.

I think in most countries you are going to be able to find some people who would welcome their leader being put in a gulag and some that don't, pointing at one or the other isn't really going to be reliable evidence of it being good. There are people on here who would be pretty happy if the chinooks landed at number 10 and put a bag on Starmers head. It isn't about the situation, its about the precedent.

Regime change hasn't worked out well in the past, this is slightly different because they aren't even pretending that they want to change the regime, they are just going to keep working down the ladder until they find someone who will help secure passage for American oil companies. It is a protection racket and no amount of pointing out that Maduro is bad is going to stop that fact. Which country is next?

Foreign leaders will tie themselves in knots trying to respond to this, because they don't want the spotlight on them. America are just going to roll with this until there is actual political pushback and the eyes of the world are on it.

This is not a situation where you need to hunt for some sort of silver lining, chaos ensues if this becomes normal, that's should be enough for everyone to call it what it is.

[the other bob wilson]

I think "the mask slips" when you see comments like wishing for Venezuela to be contemporary Americas Vietnam. Just like Venezuela is a pawn in Trump and Americas global game, so to it is for many people on the left who just view it as part of a wider ideological, anti-imperial game.

I don't think anyone is comfortable with the methods, bur it really is a case of seeing how the Venezuelan people react here, and what their next move is, which has to be towards free elections.

My mind goes back to 2003 and the “liberation” of Iraq. I recall a military “expert” being interviewed on breakfast television telling us how the allied forces would be greeted by joyful locals giving them a heroes welcome as they arrived in every new town.

[delmbox]

I remember a time when the FIFA Peace Prize meant something

[jon1959]

I remember a time when the FIFA Peace Prize meant something

I remember when the Epstein Files were on the front pages!

[delmbox]

I remember when the Epstein Files were on the front pages!

ding ding ding ding ding!

[Dorcus]

I remember when the Epstein Files were on the front pages!

Apparently there's around 5 million more items in the files. That amount is going to take a huge amount of distraction to soften their impact. I think anywhere in the World is at risk of a Trump attack but Greenland, Colombia, Cuba and Mexico had better be on red alert.

Oh and doesn't Trump hate the present presidential incumbent in Brazil? Who knows, a daring attempt to restore Bolsanaro to office? Those Epstein files might soon be slipping away into the sports and fashion pages

[Harry Paget Flashman]

How many body bags per week are you hoping for?

I couldn't care less, providing no Welshmen are harmed.

If the US wants to play an Imperial game with their young as pawns then maybe those that voted for, excuse or support this government see it as a necessary loss.

They only people that stand to gain are those involved in arms and oil.

Oh and the odd nonce in Epstein files.

[Heathblue]

I remember when the Epstein Files were on the front pages!

Was Joe asleep at the wheel.or has the extra million odd docs only just been found behind the sideboard?, far left cocaine loving commie's have been not so vocal of late, I wonder if the penny has suddenly dropped, Trump's 5D chess whilst the fact checking guardian BBC fan boys are still trying to learn checkers. 😁

NCSWIC

[jon1959]

Was Joe asleep at the wheel.or has the extra million odd docs only just been found behind the sideboard?, far left cocaine loving commie's have been not so vocal of late, I wonder if the penny has suddenly dropped, Trump's 5D chess whilst the fact checking guardian BBC fan boys are still trying to learn checkers. 😁

NCSWIC

Can anyone translate?

I can’t work out if Trump’s 5D chess is hiding Epstein files, deflecting the news agenda, breaking international law, trashing the ‘rules based order’, stealing the oil, threatening Greenland (again) or ‘OD’ing on aspirin?

Or all of the above?

This latest round of Trump love seems to have its own coded language. Very difficult for non true believers to follow!

[Dorcus]

Can anyone translate?

I can’t work out if Trump’s 5D chess is hiding Epstein files, deflecting the news agenda, breaking international law, trashing the ‘rules based order’, stealing the oil, threatening Greenland (again) or ‘OD’ing on aspirin?

Or all of the above?

This latest round of Trump love seems to have its own coded language. Very difficult for non true believers to follow!

Trump would have difficulty understanding Snap let alone Chess

[Jordi Culé]

Just to add my own absolute drivel and if some media reports are to be believed, I suggest to resolve the Venezuela crisis Trump should challenge Maduro to a dance off.

Obviously being Trump, he'd make it the biggest and most beautiful 'dance off' since Special K, Ozone & Turbo went head to head with Electro Rock.

TV/Streaming rights, Trump wearing shorts akin to Apollo Creed in Rocky III I actually think it makes commercial sense as well as a great spectacle.

We need impartial judges though so sorry Piers Morgan you've picked Donnie's bollocks far too much to be considered.

AFDFAAFK

Above is for those 'in the know'... nod, nod...

[Dorcus]

Just to add my own absolute drivel and if some media reports are to be believed, I suggest to resolve the Venezuela crisis Trump should challenge Maduro to a dance off.

Obviously being Trump, he'd make it the biggest and most beautiful 'dance off' since Special K, Ozone & Turbo went head to head with Electro Rock.

TV/Streaming rights, Trump wearing shorts akin to Apollo Creed in Rocky III I actually think it makes commercial sense as well as a great spectacle.

We need impartial judges though so sorry Piers Morgan you've picked Donnie's bollocks far too much to be considered.

AFDFAAFK

Above is for those 'in the know'... nod, nod...

The Dance of the Macabre

[JamesWales]

I couldn't care less, providing no Welshmen are harmed.

If the US wants to play an Imperial game with their young as pawns then maybe those that voted for, excuse or support this government see it as a necessary loss.

They only people that stand to gain are those involved in arms and oil.

Oh and the odd nonce in Epstein files.

By your logic, the Venezuelans deserve everything they get for electing Maduro initially (if it was ever fair in the first place) and Palestinians deserve what they get for electing Hamas.

It's one way of looking at it I suppose, but not a very good one

[Rjk]

Its funny seeing all the "no more wars" people suddenly deciding that it's a good think that the US have unilaterally decided to invade a country and depose their leader, and they just happen to have a shitload of oil.

As others have pointed out If China decide that they want to take Taiwan back - or at least impose a Beijing friendly leadership there then it would be pretty hypocritical for the US to now oppose that. Or indeed you can make a similar comparison with what Putin tried to achieve in Ukraine.
Trump seems to have singled handedly dialled the clocks back to an age of gunboat diplomacy.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Can anyone translate?

I can’t work out if Trump’s 5D chess is hiding Epstein files, deflecting the news agenda, breaking international law, trashing the ‘rules based order’, stealing the oil, threatening Greenland (again) or ‘OD’ing on aspirin?

Or all of the above?

This latest round of Trump love seems to have its own coded language. Very difficult for non true believers to follow!

I'll give it a go.

Heathblue was freshly back home after more than a few post match family pints during which they came up with their "wind up the lefties" lines for the week.

This apparently involves concurrently believing acts of regime change are abhorrent and Trump's act of regime change is an example of him playing 5d chess. Whether this survives the sobering up process is anyone's guess!

[Eric Cartman]

By your logic, the Venezuelans deserve everything they get for electing Maduro initially (if it was ever fair in the first place) and Palestinians deserve what they get for electing Hamas.

It's one way of looking at it I suppose, but not a very good one

The median age in Gaza in 2023 was around 20 and the last election was held in 2006. Median age is likely even lower now so the majority of people in Gaza were not even alive at the last election, let alone old enough to vote.

It's a bit different to the USA.

[JamesWales]

The median age in Gaza in 2023 was around 20 and the last election was held in 2006. Median age is likely even lower now so the majority of people in Gaza were not even alive at the last election, let alone old enough to vote.

It's a bit different to the USA.

The logic is grotesque however you look at it, without any demographic justification. Wishing for death to make a political point is plainly wrong, and it's a clear extension of the logic expressed in an earlier post.

[Harry Paget Flashman]

Except the difference being that Venezuela or Palestine aren't imperialistic countries.

[Eric Cartman]

The logic is grotesque however you look at it, without any demographic justification. Wishing for death to make a political point is plainly wrong, and it's a clear extension of the logic expressed in an earlier post.

I am not saying it isn't still a bad thing to say, I am saying its different and not comparable because almost every voting age person in the USA had the opportunity not to vote for this administration last year, Palestinians have significantly less power and opportunity.

If this isn't a failure, I think they will go again. In some ways its more valid for me to say 'James wants Venezuela to be a successful mission for the USA, he therefore wants the USA to do the same to other countries'. I don't think you do want that, but it is the probable outcome of this all working out without negative consequences.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

People say "let's see what the Venezuelan people make of all this" but they won't get any say in the plundering of their oil reserves by US oil companies. The next Venezuelan government will be a vassal state of the USA or, more accurately Emperor Trump.

It's all part of the majority powers seeking to source raw materials around the world albeit in different ways.

It's highly unlikely that Trump's objective is to leave Venezuela in a more democratic state than the US is becoming. That would entail the risk that US oil companies may not be welcome by any elected leadership there.

Russia must be envious.

[Wales-Bales]

I am not saying it isn't still a bad thing to say, I am saying its different and not comparable because almost every voting age person in the USA had the opportunity not to vote for this administration last year, Palestinians have significantly less power and opportunity.

If this isn't a failure, I think they will go again. In some ways its more valid for me to say 'James wants Venezuela to be a successful mission for the USA, he therefore wants the USA to do the same to other countries'. I don't think you do want that, but it is the probable outcome of this all working out without negative consequences.

Fair play, you'd win the Olympic gold medal for mental gymnastics

[Wales-Bales]

What the heck ...

[Trigger]

Its funny seeing all the "no more wars" people suddenly deciding that it's a good think that the US have unilaterally decided to invade a country and depose their leader, and they just happen to have a shitload of oil.

As others have pointed out If China decide that they want to take Taiwan back - or at least impose a Beijing friendly leadership there then it would be pretty hypocritical for the US to now oppose that. Or indeed you can make a similar comparison with what Putin tried to achieve in Ukraine.
Trump seems to have singled handedly dialled the clocks back to an age of gunboat diplomacy.

I don't think it's Trump dialling it back, Russia already invaded Ukraine.

From my understanding Venezuela have long been cosying up to the Chinese and Russians and so similar to Russia's invasion this is about spheres of influence, the big players trying to control their immediate surroundings and sending a message.

Political leaders will make noise of international law and sovereignty but unless you are able to enforce or defend it it's all for nothing.

What I would say is unlike the rather messy, cumbersome approach of the past and Russia's own attempts in Ukraine, this seems to have been extremely well planned and rather "clean".

[goats]

Its funny seeing all the "no more wars" people suddenly deciding that it's a good think that the US have unilaterally decided to invade a country and depose their leader, and they just happen to have a shitload of oil.

As others have pointed out If China decide that they want to take Taiwan back - or at least impose a Beijing friendly leadership there then it would be pretty hypocritical for the US to now oppose that. Or indeed you can make a similar comparison with what Putin tried to achieve in Ukraine.
Trump seems to have singled handedly dialled the clocks back to an age of gunboat diplomacy.

China will be moving in very soon on this now no doubt, almost a green light. Putin doesn’t like Ukraines president, ok to take him out too then? I’m surprised it hasn’t kicked off in the democrat cities of the USA yet, how much longer are they going to put up with this government running the show?