The Donald Trump thread

[Cyncoed Dave]

Just think about the Lostprophets singer.

[cyril evans awaydays]

All the chaos trump is/has caused and you’re holding onto that. Ffs

Look, a over a decade ago he was on point with those dubious conflicts that the Yanks started and we followed in the name of the war on terror. Now he is a shell of himself half knowing that his hero Donny is just like all the rest but can't let him go. Sad really!

[Cyncoed Dave]

Look, a over a decade ago he was on point with those dubious conflicts that the Yanks started and we followed in the name of the war on terror. Now he is a shell of himself half knowing that his hero Donny is just like all the rest but can't let him go. Sad really!

What happened to Trump's Iran uprising? Where are the millions of people, that Trump claimed were desperate to overthrow their government?

Trump has used up munition stockpiles from all over the world, which should have lasted for years in just three weeks.

Reports are coming out (not on mainstream) that 600 US servicemen have been killed, not the 200 that Trump claimed.

Iranian official channels are broadcasting that they have 173 US Delta Force soldiers, as captured prisoners of war. The result of a botched landing on an island.

Why are there nightly demonstrations of support, for the Iranian government, in all major Iranian cities.

[cyril evans awaydays]

What happened to Trump's Iran uprising? Where are the millions of people, that Trump claimed were desperate to overthrow their government?

Trump has used up munition stockpiles from all over the world, which should have lasted for years in just three weeks.

Reports are coming out (not on mainstream) that 600 US servicemen have been killed, not the 200 that Trump claimed.

Iranian official channels are broadcasting that they have 173 US Delta Force soldiers, as captured prisoners of war. The result of a botched landing on an island.

Why are there nightly demonstrations of support, for the Iranian government, in all major Iranian cities.

There are few separate questions and statements in that thread.

1) My guess that there are many millions of Iranians in that country that would be more than happy to see the end of the odious regime. If we were bombed by foreign powers I would expect any sympathy for the cause would be swallowed up when you see hundreds of Iranian kids getting killed.

2) I have no idea what sources you have for the killings and capture of US Service people. Perhaps you can post them but I would file it under absolute bollocks. For all the US sins under Trump there is still enough of a democratic footprint that losses or captures of that scale would be soon known.

If you want to be seduced by the propaganda of a venal regime even if it is subject to illegal aggression I guess I can't stop you!

[Cyncoed Dave]

There are few separate questions and statements in that thread.

1) My guess that there are many millions of Iranians in that country that would be more than happy to see the end of the odious regime. If we were bombed by foreign powers I would expect any sympathy for the cause would be swallowed up when you see hundreds of Iranian kids getting killed.

2) I have no idea what sources you have for the killings and capture of US Service people. Perhaps you can post them but I would file it under absolute bollocks. For all the US sins under Trump there is still enough of a democratic footprint that losses or captures of that scale would be soon known.

If you want to be seduced by the propaganda of a venal regime even if it is subject to illegal aggression I guess I can't stop you!

Do you prefer to be seduced by US/Israeli propaganda, both of which launched an illegal war while in the middle of negotiations with the Iranian government?

With a population of 93 million, I dare say some may be less than enthusiastic about their government. But millions are on the streets every night showing support for it.

We can say millions of people have no time for our government, but they're not going to overthrow it, not even going to attempt to overthrow it.

Millions are quite happy with our form of government, don't you think the same applies with Iranians?

The facts remain that the reasons given for this war were completely bogus. "Iranians would be free to overturn their government".

Do you seriously think that 93 million people want to be told, that Israel and the USA will choose a leader, who will be acceptable to them?

The son of the Shah has been promoted as being acceptable to Israel and the USA.
A playboy living off stolen billions all his life.

He's never even run a bath, yet alone run a country.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Do you prefer to be seduced by US/Israeli propaganda, both of which launched an illegal war while in the middle of negotiations with the Iranian government?

With a population of 93 million, I dare say some may be less than enthusiastic about their government. But millions are on the streets every night showing support for it.

We can say millions of people have no time for our government, but they're not going to overthrow it, not even going to attempt to overthrow it.

Millions are quite happy with our form of government, don't you think the same applies with Iranians?

The facts remain that the reasons given for this war were completely bogus. "Iranians would be free to overturn their government".

Do you seriously think that 93 million people want to be told, that Israel and the USA will choose a leader, who will be acceptable to them?

The son of the Shah has been promoted as being acceptable to Israel and the USA.
A playboy living off stolen billions all his life.

He's never even run a bath, yet alone run a country.

I think we both agree that the justification for war was bogus.

We may have differing views on the level of support for the current regime. Regardless I seem to find an autocratic regime founded on religious doctrine far more odious than you.

But the bit you missed in the propoganda discussion was the evidence for the US deaths and capture of forces. If you could post some evidence rather than bluster I guess some would pay more attention to Splott David 2.0 rather than its exhausting progenitor.

[jon1959]

Do you prefer to be seduced by US/Israeli propaganda, both of which launched an illegal war while in the middle of negotiations with the Iranian government?

With a population of 93 million, I dare say some may be less than enthusiastic about their government. But millions are on the streets every night showing support for it.

We can say millions of people have no time for our government, but they're not going to overthrow it, not even going to attempt to overthrow it.

Millions are quite happy with our form of government, don't you think the same applies with Iranians?

The facts remain that the reasons given for this war were completely bogus. "Iranians would be free to overturn their government".

Do you seriously think that 93 million people want to be told, that Israel and the USA will choose a leader, who will be acceptable to them?

The son of the Shah has been promoted as being acceptable to Israel and the USA.
A playboy living off stolen billions all his life.

He's never even run a bath, yet alone run a country.

All of that may be true - I think it is - but it completely sidesteps Cyril's points which are 100% right.

Why do you always undermine your serious political and analytical points with credulous bullshit that you cannot back up?

You did the same a few years ago with the alleged imminent Hamas/Hezbollah destruction of the Israeli military - which turned out to be pure fantasy.

There is a very strong case to be made that Iran is winning this war - not in any conventional sense, but by survival and a chokehold on the Straits of Hormuz (and attacks on gas/oil sites of the USA's Middle East allies), but massively exaggerated claims that even the Iranian government is not making do nothing to give the rest of your posts any credibility. Which is a waste and a shame.

You, Splotty, share some unfortunate characteristics with Gluey. The BS is strong in both of you!

[Cyncoed Dave]

All of that may be true - I think it is - but it completely sidesteps Cyril's points which are 100% right.

Why do you always undermine your serious political and analytical points with credulous bullshit that you cannot back up?

You did the same a few years ago with the alleged imminent Hamas/Hezbollah destruction of the Israeli military - which turned out to be pure fantasy.

There is a very strong case to be made that Iran is winning this war - not in any conventional sense, but by survival and a chokehold on the Straits of Hormuz (and attacks on gas/oil sites of the USA's Middle East allies), but massively exaggerated claims that even the Iranian government is not making do nothing to give the rest of your posts any credibility. Which is a waste and a shame.

You, Splotty, share some unfortunate characteristics with Gluey. The BS is strong in both of you!

I have no interest in getting into a slanging match with you or Cyril. Let's look at your claim with regard to Hamas and Hezbollah. If you like I will throw in the Houthis as well. These are purely resistance organisations and like all resistance organisations (if it helps I will include the IRA ) their success is measured by their ability to survive. If they survive then they've won. It's a standard playbook measurement for all resistance groups/organisations.

They're opposed by vastly superior forces in terms of manpower, munitions, intelligence, technical ability and almost unlimited resources. A bit like Merthyr away to Chelsea.

No sane member of any conventional army would do what resistance individuals accept as normal. Running with fused explosives across open ground for 200/300 metres, to blow up an armoured vehicle, knowing certain death awaits them if they're spotted.

So every day, week, month and year that they remain operational and survive, they're winning.

Now let's look at it from a conventional perspective. For over thirty years the Pentagon analysts have war gamed a US/Iran fullscale confrontation, repeatedly. Every time they come up with the conclusion that for lots of factors, the US would lose, in a full-scale war with Iran.

Now in their corner Iran have North Korea, China and Russia, providing them with technical assistance. But even that is not as much of an impediment to US success, as the economic factor is.

If you kick a hornet's nest, he that kicks it doesn't get to decide when the hornets will settle down. Only the hornets will decide that.

"It's the economy stupid".

Within the next two weeks, oil could go to $200 a barrel and after that full scale rationing. 20% of oil shipping has to go past the Houthis, in the Bab al-Mandab Strait, off the coast of Yemen

The US Navy decided not to play with the Houthis and effectively walked off the pitch, half way through the game. They haven't asked for a rematch.

Blocking Bab al-Mandab, along with the Straits of Hormuz, will suffocate the US economy in a matter of weeks, not months.

Now the orange blob could decide to do a pitch invasion, using the US Army. The standard force multiplier for that is a 3:1 ratio. So if Iran have a million in their IRGC, the blob will need to commit three million men to have chance of a successful invasion. If you don't control the land you can't control the Hormuz Strait.

I won't even go into the Iranian terrain, or the fact that should the US invasion force, get past the IRGC, there's a standing regular Iranian army of another million men.

[jon1959]

Again I agree with a lot of that - it is a longer version of what I said - although I think you are again overdoing the Houthi threat.

But where is your source/evidence for 600 US military dead (and when did Trump claim there were 200?)?

Where is your source for 173 captured Delta Force US soldiers?

If either of those claims were true we would know about it. The Iranian regime would be telling the world, even if there was some kind of news black out from the US with the relatives somehow silenced.

That is the BS - but again you have side stepped.

[Cyncoed Dave]

Again I agree with a lot of that - it is a longer version of what I said - although I think you are again overdoing the Houthi threat.

But where is your source/evidence for 600 US military dead (and when did Trump claim there were 200?)?

Where is your source for 173 captured Delta Force US soldiers?

If either of those claims were true we would know about it. The Iranian regime would be telling the world, even if there was some kind of news black out from the US with the relatives somehow silenced.

That is the BS - but again you have side stepped.

Good morning Jon.

Let's look at both individually. If we go back to the period March 9th to March 12th, that's the time that Dr Jill Stein (American Green Party) produced the information relative to Delta.

At the time it made sense, because suggestions were being made for the US to land a small force on Kharg island, where about 90% of all Iranian oil is exported from. Obviously it wasn't suggested as an invasion of Iran, but a small diversionary tactic to secure the safe transit of oil tankers.

Post March 12th, George Galloway, on his MOATS show, quoted "official Iranian sources" which repeated the earlier claims of Dr Jill Stein.

Now as of today, I'm happy to confirm that no such diversionary tactic, has taken place on Kharg island. It would appear that the real source of this, was AI generated. Perhaps others on here, with relevant knowledge of AI, will come forward and confirm this.

Your second point is a lot harder to pin down. Trump and Hegseth were together on Airforce One, when he was asked by a reporter about the missile strike on a girl's school, which killed 175 children and their teachers.

This was his response:


"No, in my opinion, based on what I’ve seen, that was done by Iran,” Trump said.

After the defense secretary declined to back the president, saying only that the matter was under investigation, Trump repeated his claim. “It was done by Iran. They’re very inaccurate as you know with their munitions. They have no accuracy whatsoever. It was done by Iran,” he insisted.

Even this account from the Guardian, is misleading, as in real time Hegseth can be clearly seen as mentioning Iran, backing up Trump's statement.

[Cyncoed Dave]

Good morning Jon.

Let's look at both individually. If we go back to the period March 9th to March 12th, that's the time that Dr Jill Stein (American Green Party) produced the information relative to Delta.

At the time it made sense, because suggestions were being made for the US to land a small force on Kharg island, where about 90% of all Iranian oil is exported from. Obviously it wasn't suggested as an invasion of Iran, but a small diversionary tactic to secure the safe transit of oil tankers.

Post March 12th, George Galloway, on his MOATS show, quoted "official Iranian sources" which repeated the earlier claims of Dr Jill Stein.

Now as of today, I'm happy to confirm that no such diversionary tactic, has taken place on Kharg island. It would appear that the real source of this, was AI generated. Perhaps others on here, with relevant knowledge of AI, will come forward and confirm this.

Your second point is a lot harder to pin down. Trump and Hegseth were together on Airforce One, when he was asked by a reporter about the missile strike on a girl's school, which killed 175 children and their teachers.

This was his response:


"No, in my opinion, based on what I’ve seen, that was done by Iran,” Trump said.

After the defense secretary declined to back the president, saying only that the matter was under investigation, Trump repeated his claim. “It was done by Iran. They’re very inaccurate as you know with their munitions. They have no accuracy whatsoever. It was done by Iran,” he insisted.

Even this account from the Guardian, is misleading, as in real time Hegseth can be clearly seen as mentioning Iran, backing up Trump's statement.

https://x.com/i/status/2035771721899217382

[MOZZER2]

Good morning Jon.

Let's look at both individually. If we go back to the period March 9th to March 12th, that's the time that Dr Jill Stein (American Green Party) produced the information relative to Delta.

At the time it made sense, because suggestions were being made for the US to land a small force on Kharg island, where about 90% of all Iranian oil is exported from. Obviously it wasn't suggested as an invasion of Iran, but a small diversionary tactic to secure the safe transit of oil tankers.

Post March 12th, George Galloway, on his MOATS show, quoted "official Iranian sources" which repeated the earlier claims of Dr Jill Stein.

Now as of today, I'm happy to confirm that no such diversionary tactic, has taken place on Kharg island. It would appear that the real source of this, was AI generated. Perhaps others on here, with relevant knowledge of AI, will come forward and confirm this.

Your second point is a lot harder to pin down. Trump and Hegseth were together on Airforce One, when he was asked by a reporter about the missile strike on a girl's school, which killed 175 children and their teachers.

This was his response:


"No, in my opinion, based on what I’ve seen, that was done by Iran,” Trump said.

After the defense secretary declined to back the president, saying only that the matter was under investigation, Trump repeated his claim. “It was done by Iran. They’re very inaccurate as you know with their munitions. They have no accuracy whatsoever. It was done by Iran,” he insisted.

Even this account from the Guardian, is misleading, as in real time Hegseth can be clearly seen as mentioning Iran, backing up Trump's statement.

with reference to the delta incident i,m pretty sure professor Marandi who speaks almost every week on the MOATS show which i tune into mentioned this but as you say in hindsight was AI generated allegedly

With so much fake AI imagery circulating at the minute very difficult to dig into the weeds of truth that gets reported with conflicts around the world

[jon1959]

Good morning Jon.

Let's look at both individually. If we go back to the period March 9th to March 12th, that's the time that Dr Jill Stein (American Green Party) produced the information relative to Delta.

At the time it made sense, because suggestions were being made for the US to land a small force on Kharg island, where about 90% of all Iranian oil is exported from. Obviously it wasn't suggested as an invasion of Iran, but a small diversionary tactic to secure the safe transit of oil tankers.

Post March 12th, George Galloway, on his MOATS show, quoted "official Iranian sources" which repeated the earlier claims of Dr Jill Stein.

Now as of today, I'm happy to confirm that no such diversionary tactic, has taken place on Kharg island. It would appear that the real source of this, was AI generated. Perhaps others on here, with relevant knowledge of AI, will come forward and confirm this.

Your second point is a lot harder to pin down. Trump and Hegseth were together on Airforce One, when he was asked by a reporter about the missile strike on a girl's school, which killed 175 children and their teachers.

This was his response:


"No, in my opinion, based on what I’ve seen, that was done by Iran,” Trump said.

After the defense secretary declined to back the president, saying only that the matter was under investigation, Trump repeated his claim. “It was done by Iran. They’re very inaccurate as you know with their munitions. They have no accuracy whatsoever. It was done by Iran,” he insisted.

Even this account from the Guardian, is misleading, as in real time Hegseth can be clearly seen as mentioning Iran, backing up Trump's statement.

I agree any spectacular claims about mass capture of US special forces is likely to be false AI stuff.

Misinformation and crude propaganda is rising exponentially with the growth of AI and social media.

The Bots will inherit the earth!

I have no idea how my questioning your claim of 600 US military deaths (or the 200 you said Trump had 'claimed') turned into a discussion about the US missile attack on a girls school in Minab - a war crime.

Of course Trump and Hegseth made allegations that it was a mis-functioning Iranian missile responsible, but every other source of information or informed opinion (including from within the US military) is clear that this was a US attack. I assume they were using old and flawed intelligence reports and didn't intend to murder over 100 schoolgirls and others gathered in the school - but that does not exonerate them at all.

The Trump regime has disarmed and demoralised the various opposition forces in Iran (some of them directed by hostile states, most of them progressive and incredibly brave opponents of a murderous theocracy).

It is also losing this war when it comes to economic impacts, cyber attacks and the 'court of world public opinion'. Where it isn't losing is in a conventional military sense - and there is no way that changes even if the USA and Israel seriously deplete their stockpiles.

[cyril evans awaydays]

with reference to the delta incident i,m pretty sure professor Marandi who speaks almost every week on the MOATS show which i tune into mentioned this but as you say in hindsight was AI generated allegedly

With so much fake AI imagery circulating at the minute very difficult to dig into the weeds of truth that gets reported with conflicts around the world

https://news.meaww.com/fact-check-is...hran-raid-true

Or people can do their own sense check of things that look ludicrously dubious before they repost them as fact. The Delta Force one spread on March 8th then was debunked a day later yet its being posted on here as fact two weeks after it has been trashed.

[Cyncoed Dave]

I agree any spectacular claims about mass capture of US special forces is likely to be false AI stuff.

Misinformation and crude propaganda is rising exponentially with the growth of AI and social media.

The Bots will inherit the earth!

I have no idea how my questioning your claim of 600 US military deaths (or the 200 you said Trump had 'claimed') turned into a discussion about the US missile attack on a girls school in Minab - a war crime.

Of course Trump and Hegseth made allegations that it was a mis-functioning Iranian missile responsible, but every other source of information or informed opinion (including from within the US military) is clear that this was a US attack. I assume they were using old and flawed intelligence reports and didn't intend to murder over 100 schoolgirls and others gathered in the school - but that does not exonerate them at all.

The Trump regime has disarmed and demoralised the various opposition forces in Iran (some of them directed by hostile states, most of them progressive and incredibly brave opponents of a murderous theocracy).

It is also losing this war when it comes to economic impacts, cyber attacks and the 'court of world public opinion'. Where it isn't losing is in a conventional military sense - and there is no way that changes even if the USA and Israel seriously deplete their stockpiles.

Right, I've tracked the correct source of the '200' down and it was featured in USA Today, some seven days ago.
It clearly identifies injuries to service personnel, not deaths. The report mentions 60 more injuries in one week, moving from 140 injured service personnel to 200.

[ToTaL ITK]

I think we both agree that the justification for war was bogus.

We may have differing views on the level of support for the current regime. Regardless I seem to find an autocratic regime founded on religious doctrine far more odious than you.

But the bit you missed in the propoganda discussion was the evidence for the US deaths and capture of forces. If you could post some evidence rather than bluster I guess some would pay more attention to Splott David 2.0 rather than its exhausting progenitor.

I don't think anyone can disagree at all. The regime is despicable and evil. The One in Iran isn't much better.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Right, I've tracked the correct source of the '200' down and it was featured in USA Today, some seven days ago.
It clearly identifies injuries to service personnel, not deaths. The report mentions 60 more injuries in one week, moving from 140 injured service personnel to 200.

Which would all be fine and dandy if you hadn't said this;

Reports are coming out (not on mainstream) that 600 US servicemen have been killed, not the 200 that Trump claimed.

So you seem to have spent far more time tracking down a mainstream news report talking about 200 injuries than questioning whatever (not on mainstream) tweet frtom your feed that you swallowed and regurgitated without an intervening thought.

It is entertaining in a way, particularly as Organ Morgan is no longer with us, watching how this nonsense spreads via impressionable minds until it reaches the dark shores of this part of the Board!

[Cyncoed Dave]

https://news.meaww.com/fact-check-is...hran-raid-true

Or people can do their own sense check of things that look ludicrously dubious before they repost them as fact. The Delta Force one spread on March 8th then was debunked a day later yet its being posted on here as fact two weeks after it has been trashed.

Ah Cyril, so nice of you to put in an appearance.

We seem to be in harmony with one another, on the issue of a bogus justification for a completely illegal attack on Iran. Having taken the world to the very brink of WW3, we now have the spectacle of Trump, lying about a ceasefire with the legitimate government of Iran. The 'odius regime', clearly is the one prosecuting an illegal war, while fabricating talks of a ceasefire.

Iran has made it clear that at this point in time, it has no interest in discussing a ceasefire, with a country that has twice broken peace negotiations to wage war.

The Iranian position is consistent and entirely legitimate. The US must vacate all of its bases in West Asia and leave the region completely.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Ah Cyril, so nice of you to put in an appearance.

We seem to be in harmony with one another, on the issue of a bogus justification for a completely illegal attack on Iran. Having taken the world to the very brink of WW3, we now have the spectacle of Trump, lying about a ceasefire with the legitimate government of Iran. The 'odius regime', clearly is the one prosecuting an illegal war, while fabricating talks of a ceasefire.

Iran has made it clear that at this point in time, it has no interest in discussing a ceasefire, with a country that has twice broken peace negotiations to wage war.

The Iranian position is consistent and entirely legitimate. The US must vacate all of its bases in West Asia and leave the region completely.

I think you are mistaking putting in an appearance with taking the piss out of errant nonsense whose author shows little sign of wishing to recognise his stupidity and would rather deflect than confront it!

[Cyncoed Dave]

I think you are mistaking putting in an appearance with taking the piss out of errant nonsense whose author shows little sign of wishing to recognise his stupidity and would rather deflect than confront it!

Well if 'taking the piss' makes you a happy little bunny, then who am I to deny you lifes little pleasures.

[Wales-Bales]

It's nice to see that Cyril has a new friend

[the other bob wilson]

I'm a simple man (well, that's what I've been told thousands of times ). Therefore, when there's a war taking place between a coalition of a modern day rogue state in Israel whose leader appears to be taking his country to war to postpone a trial for corruption and a so called super power whose leader is the sort of man who'd now be at a retirement home with relatives saying things like "poor dear, he used to be on the telly once you know" under different circumstances and a powerful middle east country governed by people who, it seems pretty clear, had no qualms in killing tens of thousands of its own countrymen and women a couple of months ago to quell an uprising, I believe there are no "goodies" involved here. No, all you've got here are tired and evil men of middle age and more fighting a war to maintain their status quo - you only have to hear and see many of Trump's comments to see that he's obsessed with the money to be made from oil, hence his flailing about blaming NATO for the closing of the Straits of Hormuz and comments like "we did well in Venezuela, look at the oil".

[Cyncoed Dave]

It's nice to see that Cyril has a new friend

Well, in the immortal words of the Spice Girls, apparently, "friendship never ends".
Time will reveal all.

He seems to have got his "odious regimes" mixed up with his mouthwash.

This is an example, of an "odious regime".

https://youtube.com/shorts/U49R5ngRv...EOtD-FchjRYg4s

In the meantime Mr Bales, where are the smilies on here?

Thanks for your attention to this matter.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I'm a simple man (well, that's what I've been told thousands of times ). Therefore, when there's a war taking place between a coalition of a modern day rogue state in Israel whose leader appears to be taking his country to war to postpone a trial for corruption and a so called super power whose leader is the sort of man who'd now be at a retirement home with relatives saying things like "poor dear, he used to be on the telly once you know" under different circumstances and a powerful middle east country governed by people who, it seems pretty clear, had no qualms in killing tens of thousands of its own countrymen and women a couple of months ago to quell an uprising, I believe there are no "goodies" involved here. No, all you've got here are tired and evil men of middle age and more fighting a war to maintain their status quo - you only have to hear and see many of Trump's comments to see that he's obsessed with the money to be made from oil, hence his flailing about blaming NATO for the closing of the Straits of Hormuz and comments like "we did well in Venezuela, look at the oil".

I agree entirely with that

Whilst Iran is run by nutters so is America and as for Israel .....

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I'm a simple man (well, that's what I've been told thousands of times ). Therefore, when there's a war taking place between a coalition of a modern day rogue state in Israel whose leader appears to be taking his country to war to postpone a trial for corruption and a so called super power whose leader is the sort of man who'd now be at a retirement home with relatives saying things like "poor dear, he used to be on the telly once you know" under different circumstances and a powerful middle east country governed by people who, it seems pretty clear, had no qualms in killing tens of thousands of its own countrymen and women a couple of months ago to quell an uprising, I believe there are no "goodies" involved here. No, all you've got here are tired and evil men of middle age and more fighting a war to maintain their status quo - you only have to hear and see many of Trump's comments to see that he's obsessed with the money to be made from oil, hence his flailing about blaming NATO for the closing of the Straits of Hormuz and comments like "we did well in Venezuela, look at the oil".

Let's hope that the war doesn't go on as long as your second sentence, TOBW