Is the media more interested in criticizing than reporting?

[tell it like it is]

Is anyone going to bite? I'm not.

I wonder why you won't.

Are there inefficiencies in public sector? Absolutely. Can public sector be improved by addressing those? Sure. Nobody seems to want that discussion for some strange reason.

I worked at BT a few years after privatisation and tbh the culture change needed was still ongoing. Newer grads coming in had fresher ideas, were getting things done. There was still a large number resistant because they were winding their time down to retirement and nice pensions. That's part of the reason Enterprise House ended up closing down; plenty of younger, capable staff simply left.

[the other bob wilson]

My point on the German figures is that if they are out by a factor of 10, then it's not as you claim "impressive".

According to this

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...untry/germany/

the official German figure for virus cases was a little short of 167,000 as of yesterday. If, in fact, that figure should read 1,670,000 then the fact that there has been a quarter of the deaths in that country that we've have had here is very impressive and a testimony to the success of their planning.

[the other bob wilson]

I wonder why you won't.

Are there inefficiencies in public sector? Absolutely. Can public sector be improved by addressing those? Sure. Nobody seems to want that discussion for some strange reason.

I worked at BT a few years after privatisation and tbh the culture change needed was still ongoing. Newer grads coming in had fresher ideas, were getting things done. There was still a large number resistant because they were winding their time down to retirement and nice pensions. That's part of the reason Enterprise House ended up closing down; plenty of younger, capable staff simply left.

This all started because according to you I took a "joke" of yours seriously - I guess you've put that one to bed there .

[xsnaggle]

According to this

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...untry/germany/

the official German figure for virus cases was a little short of 167,000 as of yesterday. If, in fact, that figure should read 1,670,000 then the fact that there has been a quarter of the deaths in that country that we've have had here is very impressive and a testimony to the success of their planning.

But the discrepancy in the infection figures may lead people to also question the number of deaths, as in their being recorded as other things and not the virus, whereas in UK if the virus is present at death, or suspected to be present, then the death is recorded, even in the person had heart failure.
I'm not saying either way is right or wrong but its like comparing apples with oranges.

[tell it like it is]

According to this

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...untry/germany/

the official German figure for virus cases was a little short of 167,000 as of yesterday. If, in fact, that figure should read 1,670,000 then the fact that there has been a quarter of the deaths in that country that we've have had here is very impressive and a testimony to the success of their planning.

The report cited looks into cases. Does it also include deaths? If not, do German deaths scale to a similar value? If the German figures for cases are wrong, whose to say ours and others aren't?

The problem for everyone is statistics are being generated on the fly, we're potentially seeing issues across nations in terms of the way they are collated etc. I don't think any nation will have "true" figures for a very long time.

[tell it like it is]

This all started because according to you I took a "joke" of yours seriously - I guess you've put that one to bed there .

It's called discussion, Bob. Still, you've got to have something to do whilst you can't castigate the club for failing the latest and greatest in your mind that never makes it...

[tell it like it is]

But the discrepancy ion the infaction figures may lead people to also question the number of deaths, as in their being recorded as other things and not the virus, whereas in UK if the virus is present at death, or suspoected to be present, then the death is recorded, even in the person had heart failure.
i'm not saying either way is right or wrong but its like comparing apples with oranges.

Exactly. There's no worldwide standardised methodology enabling an easy comparison. Somebody at mum's care home been in and out of hospital with heart attacks last few years - had another, taken into hospital, died of another heart attack. Found to have contracted covid-19 in hospital, as care home have informed people. If so, would she count as a covid-19 death despite that being a questionable cause of death?

[Croesy Blue]

But the discrepancy in the infection figures may lead people to also question the number of deaths, as in their being recorded as other things and not the virus, whereas in UK if the virus is present at death, or suspected to be present, then the death is recorded, even in the person had heart failure.
I'm not saying either way is right or wrong but its like comparing apples with oranges.

But they haven't had a huge increase in deaths (covid or non covid) as we have. It's another mark against us if anything.

[Veg1960]

Exactly. There's no worldwide standardised methodology enabling an easy comparison. Somebody at mum's care home been in and out of hospital with heart attacks last few years - had another, taken into hospital, died of another heart attack. Found to have contracted covid-19 in hospital, as care home have informed people. If so, would she count as a covid-19 death despite that being a questionable cause of death?

The excess death charts in this article make most sense to me when trying to compare how different countries have performed

https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest

[xsnaggle]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-52539141

This report made me smile.

I immediately asked myself these questions.

If he saw the flight was so crowded why didn't he get off it, or did he expect others to get off so he could fly safely?
If he noted the lack of hand sanitisers why didn't he ask the airport staff for them?
If he noted the lack of social distancing in the queses why didn't he bring his concerns to the attention of the airport and/or airline staff before boarding?
Typical really. He takes his flight then complains afterwards. If he had really felt that strongly shirley he would have got off the flight before it took off.
"I'm entitled to fly, I paid for my ticket, but they shouldn't allow all these other people on the plane,it's not safe."

[tell it like it is]

The excess death charts in this article make most sense to me when trying to compare how different countries have performed

https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest

Again, without standardised reporting across nations, Italy I read doesn't count care home deaths for example.

It's also incredibly difficult to pin point covid-19 as cause of death. Having covid-19 at time of death doesn't make it cause of death, for example someone having heart attacks.

I don't think a clear picture will emerge for years.

[Croesy Blue]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-52539141

This report made me smile.

I immediately asked myself these questions.

If he saw the flight was so crowded why didn't he get off it, or did he expect others to get off so he could fly safely?
If he noted the lack of hand sanitisers why didn't he ask the airport staff for them?
If he noted the lack of social distancing in the queses why didn't he bring his concerns to the attention of the airport and/or airline staff before boarding?
Typical really. He takes his flight then complains afterwards. If he had really felt that strongly shirley he would have got off the flight before it took off.
"I'm entitled to fly, I paid for my ticket, but they shouldn't allow all these other people on the plane,it's not safe."

I feel like you're missing the point tbh. How they're operating needs to be criticised if that's what they're doing.

He's not complaining because he's worried about his own saftey but this is the sort of thing that will give us more infections.

[tell it like it is]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-52539141

This report made me smile.

I immediately asked myself these questions.

If he saw the flight was so crowded why didn't he get off it, or did he expect others to get off so he could fly safely?
If he noted the lack of hand sanitisers why didn't he ask the airport staff for them?
If he noted the lack of social distancing in the queses why didn't he bring his concerns to the attention of the airport and/or airline staff before boarding?
Typical really. He takes his flight then complains afterwards. If he had really felt that strongly shirley he would have got off the flight before it took off.
"I'm entitled to fly, I paid for my ticket, but they shouldn't allow all these other people on the plane,it's not safe."

"Sorry Sir, you can't board the flight, too many on so social distancing issues"

"Wahhhh not fair! I want to travel!"

[Croesy Blue]

Again, without standardised reporting across nations, Italy I read doesn't count care home deaths for example.

It's also incredibly difficult to pin point covid-19 as cause of death. Having covid-19 at time of death doesn't make it cause of death, for example someone having heart attacks.

I don't think a clear picture will emerge for years.

A look at the excess death chart gives a pretty accurate view though.

[Croesy Blue]

"Sorry Sir, you can't board the flight, too many on so social distancing issues"

"Wahhhh not fair! I want to travel!"

He's travelling for work and highlighting that they're operating dangeously, which they are.

[xsnaggle]

He's travelling for work and highlighting that they're operating dangeously, which they are.

And in another thread you said going to work is not as dangerous as going to the pub lmaa

He had an option to get off the plane and not fly, if he was so incenced by the prceedings why didn't he take that option?
No, fly first, get what he wants, then make a big fuss of complaining afterwards.

[tell it like it is]

I feel like you're missing the point tbh. How they're operating needs to be criticised if that's what they're doing.

He's not complaining because he's worried about his own saftey but this is the sort of thing that will give us more infections.

That's certainly valid.

How many in turn would complain at being told they could not board the flight as a consequence of adopting stricter social distancing?

At some point we need to realise that we're not going to eradicate transmissions via lockdown but instead has slowed the rate well enough to allow most day to day activities to return, with modifications, and that the spread is slowed enough to be handled by NHS resources.

For everyone obeying the lockdown, there are others getting antsy, parents in our street have been mixing as their kids play in the road, nearby there's been a few street parties. It's partly human psychology, "it's been X weeks, this is getting ridiculous" type views.

A staged, staggered release from lockdown needs to occur otherwise people are just going to say "sod it" and break it off their own back in greater numbers.

[tell it like it is]

He's travelling for work and highlighting that they're operating dangeously, which they are.

Is he an essential worker? Unable to work remotely?

[tell it like it is]

A look at the excess death chart gives a pretty accurate view though.

It's better than a lot of other measures, sure.

[Croesy Blue]

And in another thread you said going to work is not as dangerous as going to the pub lmaa

He had an option to get off the plane and not fly, if he was so incenced by the prceedings why didn't he take that option?
No, fly first, get what he wants, then make a big fuss of complaining afterwards.

Point 1, going to work isn't as bad for spreading the virus as going to the pub, it is also more necessary.

Point 2, are you saying we shouldn't ever complain about anything, even if as in this case it leads to things becomming more safe?

[Croesy Blue]

Is he an essential worker?

If he isn't does that mean he can't complain?

[jon1959]

I wonder why you won't.

Are there inefficiencies in public sector? Absolutely. Can public sector be improved by addressing those? Sure. Nobody seems to want that discussion for some strange reason.

I worked at BT a few years after privatisation and tbh the culture change needed was still ongoing. Newer grads coming in had fresher ideas, were getting things done. There was still a large number resistant because they were winding their time down to retirement and nice pensions. That's part of the reason Enterprise House ended up closing down; plenty of younger, capable staff simply left.

I can't speak for the whole public sector (or private - I worked in both) and neither can you, but to claim there is no interest in finding more efficient and cost effective ways of working in the public sector is plain nonsense.

For at least 20 years - and I think earlier, from the early 1990s - there has been a constant effort to reduce costs, maximise revenues and make working practices smarter and more efficient. There was bound to be given that was a period of reducing resources (especially government grants and subsidies) and rising demand. It was also the era that began with Compulsory Competitive Tendering under the Major government, passed through the Best Value Reviews of Blair and moved into systematic service inspections by the Audit Commission and other agencies, combined with best practice and cost sharing across public sector organisations - including for instance early attempts at 'invest to save' through housing, health and care services.

It hasn't made the public sector 100% efficient (nor is the private sector) and there will be major differences of organisational practice and culture across local and central government, major public services, and with some geographical variations too - but to claim no one is interested in 'addressing' inefficiencies is cobblers!

[the other bob wilson]

But the discrepancy in the infection figures may lead people to also question the number of deaths, as in their being recorded as other things and not the virus, whereas in UK if the virus is present at death, or suspected to be present, then the death is recorded, even in the person had heart failure.
I'm not saying either way is right or wrong but its like comparing apples with oranges.

So are you and tell it like it is really suggesting that there could be another 70,000 virus related deaths in Germany and the doctors who sign the death certificates have either not noticed or are instructed not to attribute them to the virus?

I've just Googled "ten times more coronavirus cases in Germany" and it brought back a lot of hits about yesterday's report with only the Daily Mail suggesting that this could mean ten times more deaths - indeed, the Telegraph's angle on it was that it suggested ten times more people than originally thought could be immune to the virus.

[tell it like it is]

If he isn't does that mean he can't complain?

If he's a non-essential worker then he shouldn't be travelling.

Does it mean airline are right? No. He can't take any moral high ground on that issue.

[tell it like it is]

So are you and tell it like it is really suggesting that there could be another 70,000 virus related deaths in Germany and the doctors who sign the death certificates have either not noticed or are instructed not to attribute them to the virus?

I've just Googled "ten times more coronavirus cases in Germany" and it brought back a lot of hits about yesterday's report with only the Daily Mail suggesting that this could mean ten times more deaths - indeed, the Telegraph's angle on it was that it suggested ten times more people than originally thought could be immune to the virus.

So an inaccuracy can occur in one category but not others?

Can you explain how a covid-19 death is registered in all nations - is it merely listing it if a person dies who happens to have covid-19?