The Two-faced, hypocritical Buffoon and his Party set for a Mauling at PMQ's Today..

[ninian opinian]

And this mornings news for the Tories on here.

Inflation hits 10-year high of 5.1% as cost of living squeeze tightens. More than double official 2% target.

Raucous Christmas party at Tory HQ leading to ex mayoral candidate and police and criminal commissioner Shaun Bailey resigning.

99 Tory’s oppose BJ’s plans in England.

State Pension age to increase to 68

But, but Jeremy Corbyn, left wing, socialism blah blah bloody blah.

[The Bloop]

And this mornings news for the Tories on here.

Inflation hits 10-year high of 5.1% as cost of living squeeze tightens. More than double official 2% target.

Raucous Christmas party at Tory HQ leading to ex mayoral candidate and police and criminal commissioner Shaun Bailey resigning.

99 Tory’s oppose BJ’s plans in England.

State Pension age to increase to 68

But, but Jeremy Corbyn, left wing, socialism blah blah bloody blah.

And if you ask any cabinet member about any of those subjects their response will be about vaccine boosters.

[lisvaneblue]

With respect John. you're telling us that Wales is the worst of the home nations, but you're not showing us your evidence of that. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the link I posted appears to suggest otherwise.

Agree with you about the trains, I certainly don't fancy travelling to the game in one on Saturday after my experience ten days ago on the way to the Sheffield United match, so I can see me giving it a miss.

PHE UK Gov data.....Total cases. E 9275513, NI 339297, S 772674. W 541254..Wales about 5% of UK population so per capita we are not so good

Deaths as recorded on death certificate per 100,000 population. E 255.9, NI 205.6, S 223.2. W283.9

[blue matt]

People screwing the system are a tiny percentage of benefit claimants and the majority need it. It’s something like immigration that has been used by the media as an excuse to divide people and get them to not want a more socialist government even though it would more than likely be better than all of us.

I fully understand that, still doesn't take away from the fact that the tiny percentage that cheat the system annoys me, it always has, Ive worked in the houses of them, they are proud that they are doing it

Immigration doesn't overly bother me, I have friends from various places, I will have a coffee ( in a Turkish coffee shop, with real turks serving me ) with 2 polish Lads ( one used to work for me ) next week to have a christmas catch up

This has been clear for so long I can’t believe someone would use this as a reason to vote. All this info is out there if you consume independent trustworthy media. It’s used as propaganda by rags like the express all the time.

I didn't use my dislike of people cheating the system as my reason to vote for the Torys

[blue matt]

Matt, you seem a lovely bloke and still.learning about life but believe me getting annoyed when you think people are screwing the system is classic right wing deflection. When you get older you'll find there's much more important things to worry about! Still, I got hope for you, you'll make it in the end.

Oh Im not that nice but thanks

It doesn't worry me that much, just annoys me at times, I just concentrate on things I can alter in the world, by it at the food bank or my own personal stuff,

[Croesy Blue]

So what did make you vote for the tories then if it wasn’t the reasons you gave for becoming more right leaning one post ago?

[ninian opinian]

I fully understand that, still doesn't take away from the fact that the tiny percentage that cheat the system annoys me, it always has, Ive worked in the houses of them, they are proud that they are doing it

Immigration doesn't overly bother me, I have friends from various places, I will have a coffee ( in a Turkish coffee shop, with real turks serving me ) with 2 polish Lads ( one used to work for me ) next week to have a christmas catch up



I didn't use my dislike of people cheating the system as my reason to vote for the Torys

You’ll lose your mind when you hear about the rich evading tax and hiding their wealth in offshore bank accounts. Surely your anger is best served on those. Reminds me of that famous cartoon D56925B2-9A44-4873-B158-B4B007C3E117.jpg

[JamesWales]

So, you now say we’ve had a good month compared to the rest of Europe, but the data I posted places us twenty ninth in a list of Covid deaths per million of the population over a period of over two years since the disease first appeared. Of the twenty eight countries in front of us, four have a population of under a million which may or may not (I’ve not checked) adversely affect their standing in the table, while sixteen of them are countries which used to be part of the old Warsaw Pact - again, you wonder if the preponderance of such countries has something to do with a lack of resources (certainly, almost all of them must suffer in a comparison with us).

Of the countries which could be called Western European, non Warsaw Pact democracies that may have been members of the old Common Market, Belgium are twenty first and Italy are twenty eighth, all of the others are below us. Maybe that’s why the author of the article (someone whose findings SAGE have used) you dismissed as leftist propaganda used the language he did - right from the first wave, the figures tend to show the UK Government (and, by implication, the devolved Governments) have done worse than countries they share many similarities with and I would argue that there are valid grounds to suggest that the fact we’ve not done even worse is that the ordinary people in the UK have, at times, been ahead of their Governments in anticipating what’s coming.

This is much more style of debate I have to say - scrutinising the numbers and coming to conclusions. And you make a fair point. Against many 'western peers' our death rates from Covid are moderately worse. That should be acknowledged. Our vaccinations are generally quicker, and on the economy and long term education or mental and physical health impacts it's probably too soon to tell.

I wouldnt so hastily dismiss the former Warsaw pact countries mind. Although economically they may still lag, I dont think they really have any less tools at their disposal to manage this pandemic than we do. But it's a fair point to make.

Either way, when we really look into the data like this, and consider all the wider impacts, it's hard to come to such a conclusion that the UK government is a total disaster, or the UK is a disaster etc. It's way more nuanced than that and some things we've done bad, some good, most middling.

For the record - I didn't dismiss it as leftist propaganda. That makes me sound like I'm standing trial at one of Stalins purges. I called him a lefty - A light hearted term and one I think is fairly accurate.

[Croesy Blue]

Quite depressing to see people voting for the tories because of “benefit cheats” and for brexit because “country’s full”.

Two things that are never going to be solved by those votes.

[ninian opinian]

Quite depressing to see people voting for the tories because of “benefit cheats” and for brexit because “country’s full”.

Two things that are never going to be solved by those votes.

It’s almost like they were lied to. They’ll never admit it.

[ninian opinian]

More than two million EU citizens could face deportation from the UK after a decision by Priti Patel to make them reapply to stay in the country. What the hell have we become?

PS story from the left wing Times.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/p...tain-tdgw99z59

[JamesWales]

It’s almost like they were lied to. They’ll never admit it.

May I suggest that people are allowed to be concerned about what they want. Annoyance at benefit fraud is very common in working class areas as it is at very close proximity to people who are playing it fair.

It's understandable that if someone is cheating the system in Ely, then someone living a few doors down and working etc will be more annoyed by it than someone in Lisvane for whom such things are generally out of sight.

The country isn't "full" but England by itself is the most densely populated major country in Europe, and people are allowed to see over development, the loss of some community assets, house price rises etc and associate the two.

In short, concerns over benefit fraud and population density are perfectly valid concerns for people. The mistake the left has generally made is the same one you are making now. You aren't understanding peoples concerns or offering viable solutions, you are merely mocking them and telling them what to think.

You need to learn to respect the electorate more, and if they have a view different to you, to understand it, not just dismiss it as someone being 'lied to'.

[Croesy Blue]

May I suggest that people are allowed to be concerned about what they want.

They are but that doesn’t mean they are valid concerns. What you are saying is “the left” needs to address concerns about things that aren’t actual issues just because people think they are.

What a waste of time. Shame people won’t be concerned about tax dodging, would put much more in the country’s coffers is we dealt with that rather than the tiny % of people getting an extra few quid a week.

[JamesWales]

They are but that doesn’t mean they are valid concerns. What you are saying is “the left” needs to address concerns about things that aren’t actual issues just because people think they are.

What a waste of time. Shame people won’t be concerned about tax dodging, would put much more in the country’s coffers is we dealt with that rather than the tiny % of people getting an extra few quid a week.

They are valid concerns to people who are worried or annoyed about it. If you are working your arse off to provide for your family and making sacrifices and someone down the road is a benefit cheat, this will annoy you. Thats a valid concern. It may not be the country's biggest issue, but it's a valid issue for that person. It's not for you to decide what peoples concerns are. This is why we have universal suffrage, so all peoples concerns are heard.

Same as burglary may not be the biggest issue in the country, but for those who have been burgled, it is probably their number one concern and that's fair enough.

I agree with you on tax dodging, although the two aren't exclusive. They are both theft and really we don't need to seperate them out; people concerned about benefit cheats will also be concerned about tax avoidance.

Consider this. You are concerned about both benefit fraud and tax dodging.

One party says "I understand that and we will try and tackle that"

The other party says "pah, you dumbass, you should only be worried about one of those things! You are being lied to!"

Who are many people going to vote for?

Change the topic to Brexit, or cultural issues, or crime or any number of factors and it goes a long way to explaining why Labour lost the red wall and why more working class people now vote Tory than Labour. That may not continue, but for the last 5 years at least it's been about respect.

[Croesy Blue]

I don’t think one party is saying “you’re a dumbass” though. And I don’t think I was talking about a party winning votes.

I was just saying it’s depressing that people are using these as core reasons for how to vote when they aren’t actual issues.

The country’s full and voting for brexit when the actual issue is lack of spending and investment on the country and infrastructure is going to end up with the exact opposite result to what the person wants.

I think benefit cheats are lazy but they aren’t worth me voting to cut benefits to the majority of people who need them.

[JamesWales]

I don’t think one party is saying “you’re a dumbass” though. And I don’t think I was talking about a party winning votes.

I was just saying it’s depressing that people are using these as core reasons for how to vote when they aren’t actual issues.

The country’s full and voting for brexit when the actual issue is lack of spending and investment on the country and infrastructure is going to end up with the exact opposite result to what the person wants.

I think benefit cheats are lazy but they aren’t worth me voting to cut benefits to the majority of people who need them.

Obviously I was using artistic licence to make a point with the 'dumbass' comment, but I assure you that it does often feel, particularly online, that many on the left do feel that way about the electorate.

I hear what you are saying and broadly respect it and agree with you on some points. The reality is though that people know what issues impact their lives and it's important to listen to those and explain them. Everyone has different concerns based on their own unique circumstances and it's not for you (or me) to tell them their concerns aren't valid.

[Croesy Blue]

If I’m honest I think one of the problems with political discourse recently is too much notice is taken of social media by the government and the opposition.

Twitter especially is always quoted and used as evidence for things but it’s active user base is tiny.

I actually think most people want the same things from the government but I also feel the Tory party won’t provide that even though that’s the way the public perception is.

[delmbox]

England by itself is the most densely populated major country in Europe

What's your source for this?

[lardy]

What's your source for this?

I'd imagine Netherlands is denser.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Simple population statistics against total land area isn't the be-all and end-all. Somewhere like the Netherlands (more densely populated than the UK) has a flat landscape and has fewer barriers to abosrb a greater population than, for example, Alpine countries where much of the land is highly mountainous and where populations are greatly limited to the valleys. Just sayin'

Ironically, Alpine countries (and indeed Wales) have a greater surface area than is evident on a two-dimensional map, of course.

[Dorcus]

Quite depressing to see people voting for the tories because of “benefit cheats” and for brexit because “country’s full”.

Two things that are never going to be solved by those votes.

Appalling in my opinion but in fairness to Matt I have to give him a thumbs up for helping out at food banks 👍

[Dorcus]

I'd imagine Netherlands is denser.

I disagree, UK is denser; it voted for Brexit!

[JamesWales]

What's your source for this?

England is marginally more densely populated than the Netherlands. Broadly twice that of Italy and Germany. Nearly four times as much as France.

I'm not saying that makes it an issue. But it's understandable if some people think it is, as it has a relationship to access to green spaces, land values, space for environmental protections, even garden sizes etc.

Even if the data can be questioned, England itself is a very densely populated country on a global scale, so it's understandable it's an issue for many.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_a...pean_countries

[Croesy Blue]

The Netherlands is much more densely populated than England. I thought Belgium would be too but different places seem to have different numbers.

As TBG said I’m not sure density is really a good measure here.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Shaun Bailey , desperate to be an MP , has resigned from some sort of position he had because he and his Conservative mates had a party during lockdown .

They are all at it !