Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Soze View Post
I find it odd that many people who claim to be "liberal" just love having a pop at religion. Liberalism is about mutual acceptance of other people's point of view, however offensive or contrarian that opinion proves to be. I find it sad that non-believers feel the need to berate believers. What difference does it make to your life? Why get hot under the collar about someone else’s choices? You wouldn’t complain about them choosing to follow a gay life. So why berate them for a religious life? I would add the following perspectives to the debate

Faith is comforting. Truth and rationalism is not
I think what irks the people most about other people following religion is that they are happy. Even if in a blissfully ignorant way, they are happy. And that irks the complainant. Perhaps because the irrationality of an unevidenced and unrobust faith is comforting. People of low income in poor countries. The lowly educated. They can be happy. They have faith and so they just believe, and it gives them comfort and hope. For the rationalist / aetheist, it can lead to unhappiness. For if not believing leads to a lack of faith, science leads you to philosophical questions such as "So what is it all for?" What is your purpose in life? Why do you work? All these questions become difficult and can lead to an unsatisfactory conclusion, no conclusion and even depression. My gran is 89 and not had much in life. But she is happy, grateful and accepts “god’s way”. There is a happiness premium to take there.

Religion as an educational tool
These days, schools and universities provide education. Over a hundred and fifty years ago hardly anyone were educated. Churches provided the unscientific allegories that gave values, principles and lessons on life, regardless of their technical accuracy. Sometimes a general point with false detail is better than absolute precision of data with an immemorable narrative. People remember stories. Very few quote accurate data. Stories are a better way to tell life’s lessons. Can anyone disagree that the ten commandments are a great way to live? Does anyone think that the story of Cane and Abel’s gruesome ending has no value? These were as memorable to me on life’s lessons as were Aesop’s Fables and Mabinogion in Welsh. The role may have faded, but given the criminality and crookedness in the world, religion still fills a useful role for many people.

Religion's influence fading with professionalism and increased secondary / tertiary education
As people become more primary, secondary and tertiary educated they are more capable of seeking data, forming opinions and analysing issues. That said, there are still a lot of uneducated people in the world who do not receive this. In addition, don’t kid yourself that educated people are wiser. Intelligence should never be confused with good decision making (wisdom). Wisdom comes from a knowledge of history, the ability to deal with multiple mental models, reading between the lines, and a sound final judgement. I have seen PHD mathematicians and physicists think they are so clever that they can advise investment banks make a fortune. They just lacked the wisdom and a few were responsible for pulling down banks in the Great Financial Crisis. Intelligence? Yes. Wisdom? No. I have seen people with Masters in Accounting go bankrupt. Intelligence? Yes. Wisdom? No. The bible does contain a lot of wisdom on life’s mistakes. And for all the scientists and well educated sense of superiority, I still see them making mistakes that the bible would otherwise advise. Committing adultery, lying, cheating, stealing, even murder. Not quite as superior as they think.

7 day a week commercialism / globalism
The demand’s from multinationals to open up business days from 5 to 7 days a week doesn’t help. It has taken away leisure time that people used to use to go to Church. If not purely religious, it was a social activity. Now replaced with people doing “retail therapy” or staring at the Playstation wondering which of their mates they can shoot with a Glock next, once they “level up”.


So am I religious? No. My grandparents and great-grandparents were a mixture of Calvinists, Methodists, Wesleyans and Church of Wales. I was Church of Wales as a child and early teens, and then I let go. What I do see is that a lot of people find comfort in it, perhaps in poverty or loss of a relative. Science would lead them to be miserable, as it leads them to the conclusion that they are here for a short while, to earn money, then tap out. A god of some sort gives them faith. A belief. And that can give a lot of comfort and happiness. I would probably describe myself as agnostic but open-minded on it. Just because I am highly educated, I don’t feel it gives me a moral high ground. Religion has its uses. It makes people happy. It is also a source of community.

So who am I to argue and denigrate just because I am inclined for the moment not to believe? I am a true liberal at heart. Live and let live. It makes them happy, leave them be - whatever the religion.
Nothing wrong with religious debate, but as a non believer I would say that some of the posts in this thread are borderline bullying from those who are very eager to disprove religious thought and faith. I think that they're shouting at the wrong people, the problem should be with the establishment, the empire so to speak. It's a bit like the Brexit debate, where those who voted out were castigated by many who were quite obviously better educated as being thick and racist. Maybe people need to play the ball a bit more and not just the man.