Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

[NYCBlue]

Apart from his ownership and mistreatment of slaves he is chiefly remembered for his exploits under Wellington. he fought in many engagements, displaying great bravery. Wellington called rough foul mouthed and irascible. He was killed in 1815 fighting at the Battle of Waterloo, leading, with only his rolled up umbrella, a crucial bayonet charge in which his division stopped d'Erlon's corps' attack against Wellingtons centre. He was the most senior officer to die at Waterloo.
Seems that a fair number of folk in the past that were heroes of their times also had a very dark side

Did he though? History is written by the victors.

[BLUETIT]

The Connecticut and Massachusetts colonies offered bounties for the heads of killed hostile Indians, and later for just their scalps, during the Pequot War in the 1630s;[15] Connecticut specifically reimbursed Mohegans for slaying the Pequot in 1637.[16] Four years later, the Dutch in New Amsterdam offered bounties for the heads of Raritans.[16] In 1643, the Iroquois attacked a group of Huron pelters and French carpenters near Montreal, killing and scalping three of the French.[17]

Do we go through history, picking out all the bad. ????

I don’t think any family would be left untarnished

[delmbox]

Do we go through history, picking out all the bad. ????

No but if there's statues up celebrating people who sold other people as commodities we consider that such a dehumanising act that their negative actions outweigh anything positive they did in their lives and we take them down.

Also randomly typing HISTORY into Wikipedia and copy pasting is not the basis of a strong argument

[pomeroy]

No but if there's statues up celebrating people who sold other people as commodities we consider that such a dehumanising act that their negative actions outweigh anything positive they did in their lives and we take them down.

Also randomly typing HISTORY into Wikipedia and copy pasting is not the basis of a strong argument

So why not take down all effigies of God? God’s instructions on how to treat slaves are in Exodus for all to read!!
My view is that God has contributed very little of any good to mankind and therefore his many statues, paintings etc. should be summarily dispensed with.Tell that to the happy clappers!!

[delmbox]

So why not take down all effigies of God? God’s instructions on how to treat slaves are in Exodus for all to read!!
My view is that God has contributed very little of any good to mankind and therefore his many statues, paintings etc. should be summarily dispensed with.Tell that to the happy clappers!!

I think it's different with fictional beings but if you want to start that crusade I've got no objections

[pomeroy]

I think it's different with fictional beings but if you want to start that crusade I've got no objections

The trouble is that billions of people the Pope, Martin Luther King, Desmond Tutu, Justin Welsby and Al Sharpton, to name but a few, believe that God ( be he Allah, Zeus, Christ, Wotan, Zoroastrian, et al. ) is real even though he condones and instructs upon slavery in the Bible. You have to be very careful who you refer to as fictional. Even the World’s best stand up comic Trump still intones “so help me God”.

[jon1959]

So why not take down all effigies of God? God’s instructions on how to treat slaves are in Exodus for all to read!!
My view is that God has contributed very little of any good to mankind and therefore his many statues, paintings etc. should be summarily dispensed with.Tell that to the happy clappers!!

Are there any statues of God - the Old Testament Beardy Boy?

All the statues/effigies I can think of from the various Christian or Jewish traditions are of saints, Jesus or Mary or biblical kings and prophets like David and Moses.

There have been a lot of paintings of God (Sistine Chapel ceiling, Orthodox icons, alter pieces etc). If you are arguing for those to be covered over with a coat of magnolia emulsion I have to disagree - apart from the Sistine Chapel which is hideous!

[jeepster]

Did he though? History is written by the victors.

SO SO TRUE.
Like Churchill when he sunk the French ships 1200 allies died on those ships.

[splott parker]

SO SO TRUE.
Like Churchill when he sunk the French ships 1200 allies died on those ships.

I think it well known that Churchill was a horrible c*nt, no time for the man at all, bloke’s like him would drop the likes of us like a shithouse seat, horrible man.

[pomeroy]

I think it well known that Churchill was a horrible c*nt, no time for the man at all, bloke’s like him would drop the likes of us like a shithouse seat, horrible man.

On the contrary I think that it is widely accepted , for all of his faults, that Churchill was a remarkable human being. A colossal figure in 20th. century history. There are many biographies of the man but as a starter I suggest you read Roy Jenkins’ fine work Churchill. Churchill’s own great works of literature such My Early Life, The History of the English Speaking Peoples, The Second World War and many others give us an insight into the breadth of his energy and intellect.
A man of small stature but he cast a giant shadow.

[jeepster]

On the contrary I think that it is widely accepted , for all of his faults, that Churchill was a remarkable human being. A colossal figure in 20th. century history. There are many biographies of the man but as a starter I suggest you read Roy Jenkins’ fine work Churchill. Churchill’s own great works of literature such My Early Life, The History of the English Speaking Peoples, The Second World War and many others give us an insight into the breadth of his energy and intellect.
A man of small stature but he cast a giant shadow.

And he was a cnut shot his own people and allies but it was only a small fault after all

[splott parker]

On the contrary I think that it is widely accepted , for all of his faults, that Churchill was a remarkable human being. A colossal figure in 20th. century history. There are many biographies of the man but as a starter I suggest you read Roy Jenkins’ fine work Churchill. Churchill’s own great works of literature such My Early Life, The History of the English Speaking Peoples, The Second World War and many others give us an insight into the breadth of his energy and intellect.
A man of small stature but he cast a giant shadow.

Hitler, Franco, Mussolini, Thatcher etc were all colossal 20th century figures as well, these last few months have opened our eyes to a few monsters from the past with energy and intellect, it certainly hasn’t improved their standing in history. It’s as though, if you’re British, you’ve got to regard Churchill as some kind of hero, maybe other countries who didn’t have the English version of history have different views on the man.

[pomeroy]

Hitler, Franco, Mussolini, Thatcher etc were all colossal 20th century figures as well, these last few months have opened our eyes to a few monsters from the past with energy and intellect, it certainly hasn’t improved their standing in history. It’s as though, if you’re British, you’ve got to regard Churchill as some kind of hero, maybe other countries who didn’t have the English version of history have different views on the man.

I hardly think that Thatcher was a colossal figure of the 20th. Century. A lot of great figures have their dark sides but history determines whether their existence was for the greater good. The greatest mass murderer, especially of his own people, was Stalin but he is still revered by lots of Russians as the man who defeated the evil Nazis and gave everyone a job. Tell that to the Ukrainian peasants who died in their millions through famine or the even greater millions who ended up in the Gulags. Taken into context Thatcher was just a minor figure in the scheme of things.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I hardly think that Thatcher was a colossal figure of the 20th. Century. A lot of great figures have their dark sides but history determines whether their existence was for the greater good. The greatest mass murderer, especially of his own people, was Stalin but he is still revered by lots of Russians as the man who defeated the evil Nazis and gave everyone a job. Tell that to the Ukrainian peasants who died in their millions through famine or the even greater millions who ended up in the Gulags. Taken into context Thatcher was just a minor figure in the scheme of things.

It's also widely accepted churchill was a racist . He was the right man for the job at the time but his intellect does not prevent him from being a right horrible git .

[splott parker]

I hardly think that Thatcher was a colossal figure of the 20th. Century. A lot of great figures have their dark sides but history determines whether their existence was for the greater good. The greatest mass murderer, especially of his own people, was Stalin but he is still revered by lots of Russians as the man who defeated the evil Nazis and gave everyone a job. Tell that to the Ukrainian peasants who died in their millions through famine or the even greater millions who ended up in the Gulags. Taken into context Thatcher was just a minor figure in the scheme of things.

Thatcher’s actions affected my life, she was a prominent figure of the 20th century, so I include her as one of the century’s despots.

[light up the darkness]

SO SO TRUE.
Like Churchill when he sunk the French ships 1200 allies died on those ships.

Churchill also sacrificed the 51st Highland Division after Dunkirk and was the chief architect of the division of the Balkans and the separation of the Middle East to create the state of Israel. The putting down with the help of the Japanese of all people of the Indian army’s revolt in Singapore during WW 1

And so on


He’s got an awful lot to answer for

[light up the darkness]

Did he though? History is written by the victors.

Agree with you about history being written rewritten and revised by the victors

I don’t have personal knowledge of his exploits but contemporary accounts for example ‘Wellington’ by Barbara Longford And Wellington: The Years of the Sword.
Wellingtons Welsh General: life of Sir Thomas Picton by Robert Harvard
paint his character quite darkly whilst praising his ferocious approach to fighting battles. Seems the type of bloke you’d want on your side rather than playing for the opposition. A bit like Sergio Ramos