Coronavirus update - NO MORE RESTRICTIONS

[Vindec]

1.4 million work for the NHS? Crikey.....wouldn’t they just do the oldies first?

I doubt whether all NHS staff will be first in the queue. There are many admin staff, for example, who don't work anywhere near the hospitals and many others who work nowhere near the COVID wards which are usually in separate areas and even different buildings to the main hospital. Isolating COVID patients from the rest of the hospital (in red zones) is usually well done so it would make no sense for all NHS staff to receive priority over the over 80s. Of course those on the front line should receive absolute priority but, as for the rest, I'm doubtful whether they will qualify to receive the jab in the first wave.

[xsnaggle]

I doubt whether all NHS staff will be first in the queue. There are too many admin staff, for example, who don't work anywhere near the hospitals and many others who work nowhere near the COVID wards which are usually in separate areas and even different buildings to the main hospital. Isolating COVID patients from the rest of the hospital (in red zones) is usually well done so it would make no sense for all NHS staff to receive priority over the over 80s. Of course those on the front line should receive absolute priority but, as for the rest, I'm doubtful whether they will qualify to receive the jab in the first wave.

Justmy opinion of course. Worth nothing.

[lisvaneblue]

I doubt whether all NHS staff will be first in the queue. There are many admin staff, for example, who don't work anywhere near the hospitals and many others who work nowhere near the COVID wards which are usually in separate areas and even different buildings to the main hospital. Isolating COVID patients from the rest of the hospital (in red zones) is usually well done so it would make no sense for all NHS staff to receive priority over the over 80s. Of course those on the front line should receive absolute priority but, as for the rest, I'm doubtful whether they will qualify to receive the jab in the first wave.

Daily Telegraph and Guardian are saying that NHS staff will come first. Seems odd as in the past the Government has always followed the science, which says elderly and vulnerable should be first.

NHS now has all the PPE it needs, has Nightingale hospitals, generally has young and healthy staff. Yet NHS staff will be offered the vaccine first.

This means they will be able to handle all the elderly that are admitted to hospital because they haven't been vaccinated.

[Vindec]

Daily Telegraph and Guardian are saying that NHS staff will come first. Seems odd as in the past the Government has always followed the science, which says elderly and vulnerable should be first.

NHS now has all the PPE it needs, has Nightingale hospitals, generally has young and healthy staff. Yet NHS staff will be offered the vaccine first.

This means they will be able to handle all the elderly that are admitted to hospital because they haven't been vaccinated.

NHS staff working on the front line, such as my son, should receive priority because if they caught the virus and went sick there would be fewer staff to treat the patients. NHS admin staff dealing with pensions and other admin duties in separate buildings should receive lower priority than front line staff. That was the point made in my earlier post (which you quoted).

[lisvaneblue]

NHS staff working on the front line, such as my son, should receive priority because if they caught the virus and went sick there would be fewer staff to treat the patients. NHS admin staff dealing with pensions and other admin duties in separate buildings should receive lower priority than front line staff. That was the point made in my earlier post (which you quoted).

Point is that your son working on the front line has the benefit of all the PPE etc that the NHS has. OK he may catch it despite all the protective equipment, and be off work for a while, but is unlikely to be seriously ill. However, an 80 year old will not have the level of protection your son has and may not survive.

If we vaccinated the age groups that are currently filling hospital beds professionals like your son would finally find that they have breathing space.

[Vindec]

If we vaccinated the age groups that are currently filling hospital beds professionals like your son would finally find that they have breathing space.

Not if the professionals are off sick with the virus.

[lisvaneblue]

Not if the professionals are off sick with the virus.

The problem with the NHS is that it's getting overloaded with elderly people catching Covid and needing hospital care.

That needs to be addressed first.

[Vindec]

The problem with the NHS is that it's getting overloaded with elderly people catching Covid and needing hospital care.

That needs to be addressed first.

So we seem to agree that NHS staff not on the front line such as Admin staff shouldn't receive priority. Where we differ is that I think staff on the front line should receive priority and you think the elderly should be first in the queue. The elderly had the opportunity to prevent getting the virus whereas health professionals working on the front line are required to do their job. They have no choice. Additionally the NHS has a duty of care particularly to their front line staff. We are not going to agree.

[goats]

Not if the professionals are off sick with the virus.

Not so much off sick with the virus, but lots of staff are having to self isolate for two weeks due to people they know having it etc.....so struggling for staff in some departments

[delmbox]

Daily Telegraph and Guardian are saying that NHS staff will come first. Seems odd as in the past the Government has always followed the science, which says elderly and vulnerable should be first.

NHS now has all the PPE it needs, has Nightingale hospitals, generally has young and healthy staff. Yet NHS staff will be offered the vaccine first.

This means they will be able to handle all the elderly that are admitted to hospital because they haven't been vaccinated.

The elderly and vulnerable can shield, the NHS staff have no choice but be exposed to it. Also "the NHS now has all the PPE it needs" seems like a pretty broad statement

[lisvaneblue]

The elderly and vulnerable can shield, the NHS staff have no choice but be exposed to it. Also "the NHS now has all the PPE it needs" seems like a pretty broad statement

A member of my family works on 'the front line' at UHW. Everything they do in the clinical setting is with the correct amount of protection, rigorous cleaning both personal and surroundings, regular monitoring and testing of staff etc.


Yet despite all this she caught it, not from the hospital, but from her daughter catching it in school.

Im what is generally referred to as elderly and my good lady is elderly and vulnerable. You mention shielding, we tried it in March when the outbreak started. We would have starved if we'd depended solely on supermarket deliveries. We just get on with life and have given up on house parties and raves.
And Im not hinting that I should be front of the queue for a vaccine, but to offer it to NHS staff first, for what appears to be logistical reasons ( the need for 'vaccine hubs') seems stupid when we all know that the people filling hospital beds and putting pressure on the NHS are 60years plus and they should be sorted first

[delmbox]

You mention shielding, we tried it in March when the outbreak started.

You were banging on about wanting to drive to Brecon to get meat in March

[xsnaggle]

You were banging on about wanting to drive to Brecon to get meat in March

If he'd gone then he might not have to go now and spread it even more.

[lisvaneblue]

If he'd gone then he might not have to go now and spread it even more.

Was there for three nights last week. Have I mentioned that the butchers there do great Welsh meat?

[lisvaneblue]

You were banging on about wanting to drive to Brecon to get meat in March

Yes, no bloody delivery slots from the supermarkets locally.

[adz-a32]

A member of my family works on 'the front line' at UHW. Everything they do in the clinical setting is with the correct amount of protection, rigorous cleaning both personal and surroundings, regular monitoring and testing of staff etc.


Yet despite all this she caught it, not from the hospital, but from her daughter catching it in school.

Im what is generally referred to as elderly and my good lady is elderly and vulnerable. You mention shielding, we tried it in March when the outbreak started. We would have starved if we'd depended solely on supermarket deliveries. We just get on with life and have given up on house parties and raves.
And Im not hinting that I should be front of the queue for a vaccine, but to offer it to NHS staff first, for what appears to be logistical reasons ( the need for 'vaccine hubs') seems stupid when we all know that the people filling hospital beds and putting pressure on the NHS are 60years plus and they should be sorted first

I know this is an American context but you can apply it to care homes: https://uk.reuters.com/article/healt...-idUSKBN27Q094

Some quotes to note:

"But the vaccine’s complex and super-cold storage requirements are an obstacle for even the most sophisticated hospitals in the United States and may impact when and where it is available in rural areas or poor countries where resources are tight."

""hospitals even in big cities do not have storage facilities for a vaccine at that ultra-low temperature.”

Indeed, one of the most prestigious U.S. hospitals, the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, said it does not currently have that capability."

"The detailed plan includes using dry ice to transport frozen vaccine vials by both air and land at their recommended temperatures for up to 10 days, she said."

So some conclusions:
- it would be tough to store them, especially in care homes and GP surgeries
- it would be tough to transport (due to the need of dry ice)
- one batch would be need to be used within 10 days (I am not a vaccine expert so I don't know if that's relatively short or long)

While I understand your point about shielding - coronavirus is a pooled risk as Van Tam said in a press conference - there are logistical reasons with the rollout of the vaccine. Though the rollout will be interesting...

[lisvaneblue]

I know this is an American context but you can apply it to care homes: https://uk.reuters.com/article/healt...-idUSKBN27Q094

Some quotes to note:

"But the vaccine’s complex and super-cold storage requirements are an obstacle for even the most sophisticated hospitals in the United States and may impact when and where it is available in rural areas or poor countries where resources are tight."

""hospitals even in big cities do not have storage facilities for a vaccine at that ultra-low temperature.”

Indeed, one of the most prestigious U.S. hospitals, the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, said it does not currently have that capability."

"The detailed plan includes using dry ice to transport frozen vaccine vials by both air and land at their recommended temperatures for up to 10 days, she said."

So some conclusions:
- it would be tough to store them, especially in care homes and GP surgeries
- it would be tough to transport (due to the need of dry ice)
- one batch would be need to be used within 10 days (I am not a vaccine expert so I don't know if that's relatively short or long)

While I understand your point about shielding - coronavirus is a pooled risk as Van Tam said in a press conference - there are logistical reasons with the rollout of the vaccine. Though the rollout will be interesting...

I used to work at Pfizer and was involved with supply chain. My take is that the vaccine will be made at various Pfizer plants around he world. Europe will be served by the plant at Puurs, Belgium. It will be transported in specialist boxes with dry ice at -70 in quantities of up to 1000 vials. In these containers it is stable for 10 days, so has to be used within this time frame

No doubt much of it will be transported by plane so it could be in UK within 24-48 hours of manufacture. The low temperature storage requirement means that it will be administered from hubs rather than from doctors' surgeries.

Hospitals can usually store drugs at -2 to -8 and at that temperature the vaccine is stable for up to 5 days. Obviously if you keep opening a fridge to take some product out that could effect the temperature and consequently the stability.
The 5 days stability in fridge is part of the 10 day time limit, not additional to it.

So in UK we need a well orchestrated campaign to get the product from Puurs to UK hubs from where mass vaccinations can take place. The government has appointed a Tsar for England to oversee the logistics of this. It may be difficult but its certainly manageable. Same will probably apply to USA. The stability/ transport issues means the vaccine is unlikely to be suitable for some poorer countries.

A downside in UK is the devolved 4 nation approach to healthcare. Each home country will be responsible for distribution and administration once they receive supply from UK Government. Based on past experience each country will want to do things slightly differently. This just adds to the links in the supply chain and takes up valuable time. If ever there was a time for a centralised UK approach this is it.