Another Brexit Bonus

[Swiss Peter]

Here we go!

"Freedom of movement" is something of a colloquialism. It didn't mean there were never checks anywhere. Some countries are outside of Schengen, so there was. You always needed your passport to fly abroad etc and it was always checked. Now it is stamped, but it needn't be. Thats a choice (some) EU countries have made I believe. They don't have to. Mines been stamped twice. It took no longer at all. A second at most.

Even if all the queues were caused by Brexit (they weren't) as opposed to anything else, they didn't occur on the second weekend of the first full summer holiday post covid and leaving the EU, which rather suggests that if people put their minds to it, then whatever problems are created can be solved within a week anyway.

It's hardly the most compelling reason to have remained in the EU is it.

No - there are certainly lots of other more compelling reasons to have remained in the EU, and delays at Dover are not near the top of my list of biggest concerns either.

But since we're on the subject, are you really trying to argue that 'movement' post-Brexit is as 'free' now as it was when UK was part of the EU but outside Schengen?. ....and this based upon your own '1 second' experience?. There's a good video from Simon Calder posted further up which suggests otherwise, and I imagine he probably knew we weren't in Schengen in pre-Brexit times.

“Freedom of movement” may be a colloquialism but it can also means real things to real people and real businesses when that movement is restricted and it causes things to go tits-up, which is what even JRM is now suggesting happened at Dover.

[JamesWales]

No - there are certainly lots of other more compelling reasons to have remained in the EU, and delays at Dover are not near the top of my list of biggest concerns either.

But since we're on the subject, are you really trying to argue that 'movement' post-Brexit is as 'free' now as it was when UK was part of the EU but outside Schengen?. ....and this based upon your own '1 second' experience?. There's a good video from Simon Calder posted further up which suggests otherwise, and I imagine he probably knew we weren't in Schengen in pre-Brexit times.

“Freedom of movement” may be a colloquialism but it can also means real things to real people and real businesses when that movement is restricted and it causes things to go tits-up, which is what even JRM is now suggesting happened at Dover.

No, I'm not. Movement is less free. There are more checks on some goods, passports are generally stamped and people have lost the automatic right to live within the EU. These are facts and I understand why for some people they were reasons to vote Remain six years ago and why they may still be bitter now.

But that doesn't mean that other issues cannot cause delays, or that problems didn't exist before, or that new problems can't be solved, or that new opportunites can't emerge outside the EU, or that all of the issues now are necessarily needed.

Problems come, problems go. This default position of many to kinda fold their arms and say, "well thats Brexit!" it's neither helpful nor in most cases truthful. Much better to try and find solutions.

It's also just one of many many ways of assessing the UK's position since 2016, and I would suggest there are more important ones. The optics for the EU's economies are generally worse than ours at the moment. (not Brexit related, I would add, although the EU's stance on Russia is questionable)

Incidentally, if there were queues like we saw two weeks ago every week, I absolutely would largely blame brexit - I asked Jon1959 if he was willing to bet on the chaos continuing, and he declined. I think it would have been fun (and I was a little worried!)

[Swiss Peter]

No, I'm not. Movement is less free. There are more checks on some goods, passports are generally stamped and people have lost the automatic right to live within the EU. These are facts and I understand why for some people they were reasons to vote Remain six years ago and why they may still be bitter now.

But that doesn't mean that other issues cannot cause delays, or that problems didn't exist before, or that new problems can't be solved, or that new opportunites can't emerge outside the EU, or that all of the issues now are necessarily needed.

Problems come, problems go. This default position of many to kinda fold their arms and say, "well thats Brexit!" it's neither helpful nor in most cases truthful. Much better to try and find solutions.

It's also just one of many many ways of assessing the UK's position since 2016, and I would suggest there are more important ones. The optics for the EU's economies are generally worse than ours at the moment. (not Brexit related, I would add, although the EU's stance on Russia is questionable)

Incidentally, if there were queues like we saw two weeks ago every week, I absolutely would largely blame brexit - I asked Jon1959 if he was willing to bet on the chaos continuing, and he declined. I think it would have been fun (and I was a little worried!)

Thing is - it is absolutely not in my interest (my pension fund!) or my kids' future interest for Brexit not to work. For that reason I will acknowledge and welcome good Brexit news if and when it comes along. In a similar fashion, I would expect those who supported Brexit to acknowledge where things are not going well, where corrective action may be needed, where some re-visiting of the agreement alongside EU partners would help (not the way it's being done with the NI protocol!)- and there seems to be an almost evangelistic reluctance to do that (not you, necessarily!).

[jon1959]

No, I'm not. Movement is less free. There are more checks on some goods, passports are generally stamped and people have lost the automatic right to live within the EU. These are facts and I understand why for some people they were reasons to vote Remain six years ago and why they may still be bitter now.

But that doesn't mean that other issues cannot cause delays, or that problems didn't exist before, or that new problems can't be solved, or that new opportunites can't emerge outside the EU, or that all of the issues now are necessarily needed.

Problems come, problems go. This default position of many to kinda fold their arms and say, "well thats Brexit!" it's neither helpful nor in most cases truthful. Much better to try and find solutions.

It's also just one of many many ways of assessing the UK's position since 2016, and I would suggest there are more important ones. The optics for the EU's economies are generally worse than ours at the moment. (not Brexit related, I would add, although the EU's stance on Russia is questionable)

Incidentally, if there were queues like we saw two weeks ago every week, I absolutely would largely blame brexit - I asked Jon1959 if he was willing to bet on the chaos continuing, and he declined. I think it would have been fun (and I was a little worried!)

Of course there are other reasons for delay than just post-Brexit passport and customs checks. I said that several times further up this thread - as have others - mainly spikes in passenger and freight vehicles and a temporary shortage of French border officials which may have been a factor for 2-3 hours on the first day. In combination with the Brexit delays (which by themselves may have created significant queues and congestion) they created days of chaos.

But you keep denying that Brexit is a factor - in the face of public statements from the Port of Dover Chief Executive, transport and travel experts and Jacob Rees-Mogg. I am surprised if, contrary to expert and insider predictions, the Dover problems have gone away. Most were predicting up to 2 years of continued intermittent blockages leading to significant delays.

Your 'bet' was nonsensical (unless all the same factors applied in subsequent days to the same extent, which was never going to happen) so I decided not to play. Sorry to disappoint.

'Problems come, problems go.... Much better to try and find solutions'. I'm sure there are thousands of people out there on both sides of the channel looking for solutions - increased capacity, enhanced technology, greater numbers of staff cramming into those 15 booths and process/procedural changes that shave seconds of the process. Unfortunately none of those thousands of people are here on the CCMB. In the absence of any relevant responsibility or expertise, we will have to content ourselves with banter and comment - some of it critical. Again, sorry to disappoint.

[Eric Cartman]

No, I'm not. Movement is less free. There are more checks on some goods, passports are generally stamped and people have lost the automatic right to live within the EU. These are facts and I understand why for some people they were reasons to vote Remain six years ago and why they may still be bitter now.

But that doesn't mean that other issues cannot cause delays, or that problems didn't exist before, or that new problems can't be solved, or that new opportunites can't emerge outside the EU, or that all of the issues now are necessarily needed.

Problems come, problems go. This default position of many to kinda fold their arms and say, "well thats Brexit!" it's neither helpful nor in most cases truthful. Much better to try and find solutions.

It's also just one of many many ways of assessing the UK's position since 2016, and I would suggest there are more important ones. The optics for the EU's economies are generally worse than ours at the moment. (not Brexit related, I would add, although the EU's stance on Russia is questionable)

Incidentally, if there were queues like we saw two weeks ago every week, I absolutely would largely blame brexit - I asked Jon1959 if he was willing to bet on the chaos continuing, and he declined. I think it would have been fun (and I was a little worried!)

Waffle

[JamesWales]

Waffle

I shall enjoy one at the Wales game in Brussels in September, if I ever get there of course.

[ToTaL ITK]

I shall enjoy one at the Wales game in Brussels in September, if I ever get there of course.

there is no fecking way you are getting into Brussels