Welsh Independence

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Re: Welsh Independence

I disagree.

100 years ago people would have said the same about an independent Ireland - then the poorest part of the UK.
now richer than the UK.
if it hadn't have become independent there is no way I would believe that it wouldn't be the poorest part of the UK still today.


if it stays within the UK, Wales will always get the shitty end of the stick

Mendacious claptrap.

Irelands GDP is vastly overinflated as a result of the double Irish. Companies such as Amazon, Facebook et al are based in Ireland and are included in GDP but pay little corporate taxes. The GDP figure is so misleading the Irish central bank prefers GNI as a measure, which is less than the UK

Ireland can't even afford socialised healthcare, it's complete nonsense that its a richer country (per capita) than the UK. There are around 500k Irish in the UK - 1 in 10 - and that's because the UK has better economic prospects.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Welsh Independence

Mendacious claptrap.

Irelands GDP is vastly overinflated as a result of the double Irish. Companies such as Amazon, Facebook et al are based in Ireland and are included in GDP but pay little corporate taxes. The GDP figure is so misleading the Irish central bank prefers GNI as a measure, which is less than the UK

Ireland can't even afford socialised healthcare, it's complete nonsense that its a richer country (per capita) than the UK. There are around 500k Irish in the UK - 1 in 10 - and that's because the UK has better economic prospects.

The Irish government is extremely unusual in that it doesn't chart its own waters. It is still done by the UK, which owns the relevant IP that applies.

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Re: Welsh Independence

The Irish government is extremely unusual in that it doesn't chart its own waters. It is still done by the UK, which owns the relevant IP that applies.

The UK also provides air and naval defence for the island of Ireland.

Ireland cannot afford its own defence, nor can it afford its own NHS, and around 1 in 10 Irish go overseas for work, yet there are those who are so delusional they believe this is the best type of future for Wales. Madness.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Welsh Independence

The UK also provides air and naval defence for the island of Ireland.

Ireland cannot afford its own defence, nor can it afford its own NHS, and around 1 in 10 Irish go overseas for work, yet there are those who are so delusional they believe this is the best type of future for Wales. Madness.

Isn't there a reluctance of some woild-be supporters of Irish nationalism in Northern Ireland precisely because of the prospect of losing access to the NHS?

[JamesWales]

Re: Welsh Independence

I disagree.

100 years ago people would have said the same about an independent Ireland - then the poorest part of the UK.
now richer than the UK.
if it hadn't have become independent there is no way I would believe that it wouldn't be the poorest part of the UK still today.


if it stays within the UK, Wales will always get the shitty end of the stick

You are right of course. 100 years ago people would have said the same about Ireland (what we now call the Rep of Ireland) and ROI is now a very advanced and wealthy country.

There's a few things to note though; It took ROI a great many decades to achieve that. It's interesting reading about the Celtic Tiger, but a big shift in education and training and favourable tax regimes and investment all contributed. There is no reason Wales couldn't do that, but it would have to stand out against competitors. Cardiff isn't Dublin unfortunately, but maybe we could be?

Wales is also far more intertwined with England the rest of the UK, both geographically, demographically and economically. As such I think there is much less of a cultural or economic case for independence.

But whilst I am opposed to it, I am open minded on it and I don't doubt over the long run there would possibly be minimal economic impact but in the short term I think it would be severe. I just don't see the benefit of it at all really and no one has convinced me much on that aside from the energy market angle, which we could clearly be a major exporter of.

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Re: Welsh Independence

Isn't there a reluctance of some woild-be supporters of Irish nationalism in Northern Ireland precisely because of the prospect of losing access to the NHS?

Absolutely. Whilst the catholic/nationalist community are now most likely to form a majority, Morden societal problems are not confined to where you pay your tax, but what services can I expect for healthcare, social care and education. Whilst NI is arguably the poorest part of the UK its still richer than most of the rest of the island, save for the Pale.

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Re: Welsh Independence

You are right of course. 100 years ago people would have said the same about Ireland (what we now call the Rep of Ireland) and ROI is now a very advanced and wealthy country.

There's a few things to note though; It took ROI a great many decades to achieve that. It's interesting reading about the Celtic Tiger, but a big shift in education and training and favourable tax regimes and investment all contributed. There is no reason Wales couldn't do that, but it would have to stand out against competitors. Cardiff isn't Dublin unfortunately, but maybe we could be?

Wales is also far more intertwined with England the rest of the UK, both geographically, demographically and economically. As such I think there is much less of a cultural or economic case for independence.

But whilst I am opposed to it, I am open minded on it and I don't doubt over the long run there would possibly be minimal economic impact but in the short term I think it would be severe. I just don't see the benefit of it at all really and no one has convinced me much on that aside from the energy market angle, which we could clearly be a major exporter of.

Ireland is not a wealthy country. Its not even the wealthiest part of the island of Ireland.

[Rjk]

Re: Welsh Independence

Ireland is not a wealthy country. Its not even the wealthiest part of the island of Ireland.

it's a lot wealthier than it would have been had it stayed in the uk

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Welsh Independence

I would like Swansea to be independent

Put it on that Swansea Cork ferry

Get rid of it

[JamesWales]

Re: Welsh Independence

it's a lot wealthier than it would have been had it stayed in the uk

How do you know?

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Re: Welsh Independence

it's a lot wealthier than it would have been had it stayed in the uk

counter factual history is full of what ifs. You have no idea if the Irish would be better or worse off. What we do know is they'd have a healthcare system in they remained in the UK.

Is your plan post independence to remove the NHS and dismantle our education system, as both will be unaffordable. Certainly if the Irish can't afford either, what makes you think an independent Wales can? Or have we discovered oil under Bute Park?

[Rjk]

Re: Welsh Independence

counter factual history is full of what ifs. You have no idea if the Irish would be better or worse off. What we do know is they'd have a healthcare system in they remained in the UK.

Is your plan post independence to remove the NHS and dismantle our education system, as both will be unaffordable. Certainly if the Irish can't afford either, what makes you think an independent Wales can? Or have we discovered oil under Bute Park?

Are you saying that they don't have healthcare or education in Ireland?

[Rjk]

Re: Welsh Independence

How do you know?

there's about 100 years of evidence of where the UK decides to spend money and where it doesn't

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Re: Welsh Independence

Are you saying that they don't have healthcare or education in Ireland?

If that's what you take from my post then there's little further to get discussed.

FWIW, Ireland doesn't have an equivalent NHS because it cannot afford it. It's one of the reasons the catholic/nationalist community (who are now a majority) aren't rushing to vote for unification. Likewise education isn't as well funded per capita as the UK.

Ireland is not wealthy, its GDP is all smoke and mirrors. If you cant see that then perhaps you joining discussions about macro economics is a bad idea.

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Re: Welsh Independence

there's about 100 years of evidence of where the UK decides to spend money and where it doesn't

You've misunderstood. It isn't possible to say what Ireland would be like today if it remained inthe union. What we do know is that after a century NI has a national health service whereas the rest of the island does not.