Has the EU improved Europe ?

[TWGL1]

Doesn’t look like at the moment does it ?

[Doucas]

Re: Has the EU improved Europe ?

A previous comment I left. UK doesn't come off well compared.

3rd highest energy bills in Europe - https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/0...-electricity-a

German inflation rate - 6.1%
German food inflation - 14.5%
German interest rates - 4% (https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/indicators)

France inflation rate - 5.1%
Food inflation - 14.3%
France interest rate - 4% (https://tradingeconomics.com/france/indicators)

Switzerland inflation rate - 2.2%
Food inflation 5.3%
Interest rate - 1.75% (https://tradingeconomics.com/switzerland/indicators)

Spain inflation rate - 4%
Food inflation - 12%
Interest rate - 4% (https://tradingeconomics.com/spain/indicators)

Italy inflation rate 7.6%
Food inflation - 12%
Interest rate - 4% (https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/indicators)

UK Inflation rate - 8.7%
Food inflation 18.3%
Interest rates - 5% (https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/indicators)


Wage growth between 2007 - 2016 almost bottom - https://www.raconteur.net/report/cur...ls-to-deliver/ (I appreciate this is out of date now but I don't expect much has changed.

So in conclusion if you compare the UK to western/northern Europe and even Spain and Italy it is damning, we are behind on what I'd consider to be the most important factors. Third highest energy/gas bills, outside of Eastern Europe we're among the worst for interest rates, inflation and food inflation.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Has the EU improved Europe ?

I never understand why brexiteers (and remainers for that matter) think comparisons between Britain and EU countries prove their argument either way. Brexit damages both sides, certainly us more.

In answer to the original question. Yes definitely.

[Dorcus]

Re: Has the EU improved Europe ?

The biggest improvement will be when it becomes one country like the USA.

[JamesWales]

Re: Has the EU improved Europe ?

Its a very interesting question and one that's impossible to answer. Do we compare it to the Europe before the EEC? The Europe before the EU? To other parts of the world? To European countries outside the EU?

Overall I think it's been good, in terms of helping to unite Europe and bring in the post communist countries. However, communism was always likely to fail, and elsewhere in the world they have also been absorbed into the free world, albeit not as successfully.

I think the issue with the EU is it's overreach. It should be an economic organisation based solely around trade and friendship. The political element can and should be almost entirely gotten rid of, with powers returned to nation states. I still think that it's thirst for power is now at a point that it is being weakened, and we saw that to an extent with Brexit - had David Cameron won meaningful concessions from them in the 2014 renegotiations then I don't think Brexit would have happened

[Swiss Peter]

Re: Has the EU improved Europe ?

Doesn’t look like at the moment does it ?

Please elaborate.

[lardy]

Re: Has the EU improved Europe ?

Its a very interesting question and one that's impossible to answer. Do we compare it to the Europe before the EEC? The Europe before the EU? To other parts of the world? To European countries outside the EU?

Overall I think it's been good, in terms of helping to unite Europe and bring in the post communist countries. However, communism was always likely to fail, and elsewhere in the world they have also been absorbed into the free world, albeit not as successfully.

I think the issue with the EU is it's overreach. It should be an economic organisation based solely around trade and friendship. The political element can and should be almost entirely gotten rid of, with powers returned to nation states. I still think that it's thirst for power is now at a point that it is being weakened, and we saw that to an extent with Brexit - had David Cameron won meaningful concessions from them in the 2014 renegotiations then I don't think Brexit would have happened

Communism was always likely to fail. That's with hindsight.

In the 1950s, communism was probably stronger than capitalism/democracy. It was by no means certain that communism would (eventually, decades later) fail.

[jon1959]

Re: Has the EU improved Europe ?

Its a very interesting question and one that's impossible to answer. Do we compare it to the Europe before the EEC? The Europe before the EU? To other parts of the world? To European countries outside the EU?

Overall I think it's been good, in terms of helping to unite Europe and bring in the post communist countries. However, communism was always likely to fail, and elsewhere in the world they have also been absorbed into the free world, albeit not as successfully.

I think the issue with the EU is it's overreach. It should be an economic organisation based solely around trade and friendship. The political element can and should be almost entirely gotten rid of, with powers returned to nation states. I still think that it's thirst for power is now at a point that it is being weakened, and we saw that to an extent with Brexit - had David Cameron won meaningful concessions from them in the 2014 renegotiations then I don't think Brexit would have happened

As a capitalist trade bloc - 'the bosses club' of the 1970s - it was a failure for ordinary people. One of the main engines of international neo-liberalism, both economically and politically. But....

As a political union - albeit a weak and underdeveloped one - it showed some progressive credentials, under pressure from labour and environmental groups across the continent. It certainly provided more protections and guarantees than the UK governments would have done from 2010 - if not before. It has also kept some of the populist right (and worse in the case of Hungary etc) in check in recent years - the benefits of staying in the club outweigh some of the attractions of neo-fascism! Against that it had its own Osbourne on Steroids moments with Greece and a few other struggling southern European economies. Overall a mildly positive effect - which is why the TUC and most of the British left lined up (unenthusiastically) behind Remain in the Referendum.

[JamesWales]

Re: Has the EU improved Europe ?

Communism was always likely to fail. That's with hindsight.

In the 1950s, communism was probably stronger than capitalism/democracy. It was by no means certain that communism would (eventually, decades later) fail.

I agree, it is with hindsight. I just mean that many post communist nations have adapted, but the EU probably helped them do it better

[life on mars]

Re: Has the EU improved Europe ?

No its collapsing slowly the smaller countries have had enough of being used by Germany and France ...

Glad we're out, think history will prove the Brexiters we're right.

Thier abject reaction to Covid vaccine , Ukraine reliance on Russian Gas has convinced me that leave was a good option.

And I stupidly voted remain .

Oh and thanks Tony Blair, for not entering the Euro . What a great decesion .

[Swiss Peter]

Re: Has the EU improved Europe ?

As a capitalist trade bloc - 'the bosses club' of the 1970s - it was a failure for ordinary people. One of the main engines of international neo-liberalism, both economically and politically. But....

As a political union - albeit a weak and underdeveloped one - it showed some progressive credentials, under pressure from labour and environmental groups across the continent. It certainly provided more protections and guarantees than the UK governments would have done from 2010 - if not before. It has also kept some of the populist right (and worse in the case of Hungary etc) in check in recent years - the benefits of staying in the club outweigh some of the attractions of neo-fascism! Against that it had its own Osbourne on Steroids moments with Greece and a few other struggling southern European economies. Overall a mildly positive effect - which is why the TUC and most of the British left lined up (unenthusiastically) behind Remain in the Referendum.

Yes, a real mixed bag - with some very significant downsides. Like any community/union/institution probably.

The usual crusty old Brexit supporting suspects in parts of the media (and on social media/football message boards) absolutely love bad news from the continent - French riots, German recession, growth of the far right. Always the same line from them - a vindication of loosening links, and evidence that the EU is heading for its certain demise.

Except, of course, talk to ordinary people on the continent and look at the research, and you get a different picture. Popularity for the EU amongst the populations of member states has grown since Ukraine and Brexit, including amongst smaller states.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...c-since-brexit

(Yes, the Guardian. Sceptics are welcome to post any counter evidence).

So, has the EU improved Europe?. Well, we don’t have the counterfactual. But if you believe the research, most people across the Continent would rather be in that out, contrary to what the UK Europhobes (many of whom probably travel little further than their keyboards) continue to try and infer.

[Swiss Peter]

Re: Has the EU improved Europe ?

Please elaborate.

Ok, don't then! :hehe:

[Swiss Peter]

Re: Has the EU improved Europe ?

link doesn't work. Maybe this one?...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexit

[Wales-Bales]

Re: Has the EU improved Europe ?

The biggest improvement will be when it becomes one country like the USA.

So following on from this logic, the ultimate improvement would be a globalised world without borders, a sort of new world order? We could then get rid of all the politicians, and let the autocratic billionaire controlled global corporations decide what we can and can't do. It sounds great!

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: Has the EU improved Europe ?

[QUOTE=Wales-Bales;5435156]So following on from this logic, the ultimate improvement would be a globalised world without borders, a sort of new world order? We could then get rid of all the politicians, and let the autocratic billionaire controlled global corporations decide what we can and can't do. It sounds great![/QUOTE]

Thought you loved Elon?