40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You were fibbing , you are back

Stop teasing Maggie

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I've not defended a single thing, but as usual you put things in people's mouths so you can reply with one of your default options which is an insult followed by a word like Nazi or Tory or Fascist or something else.

People are furious and outraged with Israel

You ? You are criticising them

I bet they are worried

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

People are furious and outraged with Israel

You ? You are criticising them

I bet they are worried

You are right Sludge. They are Nazis and Hitlers.

Phew, problem solved.

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Of course kids dying is a ****ing disgrace. All wars are.

Posting ignorant bullshit about Hitler on a football messageboard and then patting eachother on the back about it doesn't make it less likely and frankly in the real world has probably only added to it.

I'm not trying to impress anyone. I'm just disagreeing with people like you when I think you are wrong. You and others have always struggled to accept that, possibly because you self censure all the time, I dunno. But most people would think crass comparisons to Hitler are rarely valid.

You can't claim something is like Hitler, then if someone disagrees claim they don't mind kids being killed. Grow up and get real.

Did you bother to read what Miriam Margolyes actually said in that quote?

Hitler set out to destroy the Jews. Despite the Holocaust he failed.

She believes the Israeli state after WW2 has destroyed the essence of Judaism (its values and traditions) by its actions in Israel/Palestine - mass murder, ethnic cleansing and apartheid. That is not making a direct comparison between the political views (or personalities) of Hitler and Netanyahu. It is just saying that the current Israeli state has betrayed the Jewish people and what she believes they stand for - or should stand for.

Although there are fascists in the Netanyahu government - BenGvir, Smotrich and others.

Margolyes is not a lone voice in world Judaism. The post war consensus is breaking down. Whilst opposition in Israel itself has become more muted, opposition to Zionism and the actions of the Israeli state has grown sharply in places like the USA (with a Jewish population of similar size to Israel). It is driven mainly by concern for humanity and human rights but also by despair that the values and traditions of Judaism are being trashed.

And of course, the biggest cheerleaders for the actions of Israel that Margolyes and others like her condemn are Christian Zionists (who in the USA, 'the west', parts of west Africa and on CCMB massively outnumber Jewish Zionists).

And on your first sentence - kids are not 'dying', kids are being killed (often deliberately). I know the western media rules are that Palestinians die, Israelis are killed; that Palestinian deaths are a concern, whilst Israeli deaths are an outrage, but there is no need to parrot that on here.

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Did you bother to read what Miriam Margolyes actually said in that quote?

Hitler set out to destroy the Jews. Despite the Holocaust he failed.

She believes the Israeli state after WW2 has destroyed the essence of Judaism (its values and traditions) by its actions in Israel/Palestine - mass murder, ethnic cleansing and apartheid. That is not making a direct comparison between the political views (or personalities) of Hitler and Netanyahu. It is just saying that the current Israeli state has betrayed the Jewish people and what she believes they stand for - or should stand for.

Although there are fascists in the Netanyahu government - BenGvir, Smotrich and others.

Margolyes is not a lone voice in world Judaism. The post war consensus is breaking down. Whilst opposition in Israel itself has become more muted, opposition to Zionism and the actions of the Israeli state has grown sharply in places like the USA (with a Jewish population of similar size to Israel). It is driven mainly by concern for humanity and human rights but also by despair that the values and traditions of Judaism are being trashed.

And of course, the biggest cheerleaders for the actions of Israel that Margolyes and others like her condemn are Christian Zionists (who in the USA, 'the west', parts of west Africa and on CCMB massively outnumber Jewish Zionists).

And on your first sentence - kids are not 'dying', kids are being killed (often deliberately). I know the western media rules are that Palestinians die, Israelis are killed; that Palestinian deaths are a concern, whilst Israeli deaths are an outrage, but there is no need to parrot that on here.

Of course I read it. It only took thirty seconds and why would I comment on it without reading it?

I disagree with her. That's a valid position to take. Most Jewish people would likely disagree with her. Many wouldn't, and that's all fine

I don't think you need to view everything through the prism of Zionism. In this case it's a nation responding to an attack. Personally I think pretty much every government in the middle east is guilty of horrific crimes against its own or other people. Labelling one of them as Nazis, especially when that state was created in response to nazi crimes is not helpful. It hasn't helped, it won't help, if anything it inflames it.

So no, I don't endorse what she says at all, but if you think it's helpful to make such statements then you are free to do so, but it won't save a single damned life.

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Of course I read it. It only took thirty seconds and why would I comment on it without reading it?

I disagree with her. That's a valid position to take. Most Jewish people would likely disagree with her. Many wouldn't, and that's all fine

I don't think you need to view everything through the prism of Zionism. In this case it's a nation responding to an attack. Personally I think pretty much every government in the middle east is guilty of horrific crimes against its own or other people. Labelling one of them as Nazis, especially when that state was created in response to nazi crimes is not helpful. It hasn't helped, it won't help, if anything it inflames it.

So no, I don't endorse what she says at all, but if you think it's helpful to make such statements then you are free to do so, but it won't save a single damned life.

If you read the quote from Margolyes you didn't respond to it. You just abused her and then accused her of saying something she didn't.

'The prism of Zionism' is a very useful way of understanding Israel and its backers. Zionism is the political ideology of the Israeli state - the one that leads to ethnic cleansing, apartheid and colonial expansion. It is an ideology shared by many 'western' leaders as well as many evangelical Christians. It includes Mike Pompeo and Mike Pence from the Trump administration, Keir Starmer, Robert Jenrick, Suella Braverman and large parts of the US Republican Party and other leading 'western' politicians.

Who labelled the Israeli government or state as Nazis? I didn't (I said there are fascists in the government not that the government is fascist - not that it makes any difference to the dead kids in Gaza) and I have read back the last few pages of this thread and I can't see anyone else did. You invented that to have a straw man target you could attack.

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

If you read the quote from Margolyes you didn't respond to it. You just abused her and then accused her of saying something she didn't.

'The prism of Zionism' is a very useful way of understanding Israel and its backers. Zionism is the political ideology of the Israeli state - the one that leads to ethnic cleansing, apartheid and colonial expansion. It is an ideology shared by many 'western' leaders as well as many evangelical Christians. It includes Mike Pompeo and Mike Pence from the Trump administration, Keir Starmer, Robert Jenrick, Suella Braverman and large parts of the US Republican Party and other leading 'western' politicians.

Who labelled the Israeli government or state as Nazis? I didn't (I said there are fascists in the government not that the government is fascist - not that it makes any difference to the dead kids in Gaza) and I have read back the last few pages of this thread and I can't see anyone else did. You invented that to have a straw man target you could attack.

Well she says (in relation to Israel) "it seems as if Hitler has won". Now given that since 1942 at least Hitlers policy was the annihilation of the race not it's resettlement, I think we can conflude that had Hitler won then a strong Israel wouldn't exist. Ergo, I interpret her quote there as "nudge nudge wink wink, Israel are Nazis". In answer to your question "who labelled the Israeli state as Nazis?" Btw, it was done on Page 1 of this thread. Not only when the blood of Oct 7th wasn't dry, it was still being shed.

I think at this point though it is probably worth us confirming what we are actually debating here. If you think it's reasonable that people HAVE to agree with her quote, and if not then they support the killing of children, then we have no where to go with it.

However, if you want to put some specific questions to me then maybe we can see where we are, as I don't doubt for one second that everyone wants to see an end to bloodshed.

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Well she says (in relation to Israel) "it seems as if Hitler has won". Now given that since 1942 at least Hitlers policy was the annihilation of the race not it's resettlement, I think we can conflude that had Hitler won then a strong Israel wouldn't exist. Ergo, I interpret her quote there as "nudge nudge wink wink, Israel are Nazis". In answer to your question "who labelled the Israeli state as Nazis?" Btw, it was done on Page 1 of this thread. Not only when the blood of Oct 7th wasn't dry, it was still being shed.

I think at this point though it is probably worth us confirming what we are actually debating here. If you think it's reasonable that people HAVE to agree with her quote, and if not then they support the killing of children, then we have no where to go with it.

However, if you want to put some specific questions to me then maybe we can see where we are, as I don't doubt for one second that everyone wants to see an end to bloodshed.

No - I don't think 'people HAVE to agree with her quote. Many or most won't. But she is clearly talking about the destruction by Israel of Jewish values as she sees them - not the bizarre ('nudge nudge wink wink') interpretation you have put on her words.

In what version of reality could anyone (critic or supporter) think or claim that 'the annihilation of the (Jewish) race' (to use your words) has happened to give the ghost of Hitler a victory? It is a complete nonsense of an argument, and if put forward as a live threat not a reality, it would only come from those with the complete opposite viewpoint to that of Miriam Margolyes - from those who endorse all the actions of Israel in Gaza!

I did check back to page 1 and you are right that NYCBlue called Israel a Nazi state. I disagree with him. But you were not referring to page 1 with your deflection; you were talking about the last few pages since I posted the Margolyes quote. No one who has contributed to this particular strand of the discussion has said what you claim.

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

No - I don't think 'people HAVE to agree with her quote. Many or most won't. But she is clearly talking about the destruction by Israel of Jewish values as she sees them - not the bizarre ('nudge nudge wink wink') interpretation you have put on her words.

In what version of reality could anyone (critic or supporter) think or claim that 'the annihilation of the (Jewish) race' (to use your words) has happened to give the ghost of Hitler a victory? It is a complete nonsense of an argument, and if put forward as a live threat not a reality, it would only come from those with the complete opposite viewpoint to that of Miriam Margolyes - from those who endorse all the actions of Israel in Gaza!

I did check back to page 1 and you are right that NYCBlue called Israel a Nazi state. I disagree with him. But you were not referring to page 1 with your deflection; you were talking about the last few pages since I posted the Margolyes quote. No one who has contributed to this particular strand of the discussion has said what you claim.

But I do think thats what she is saying. We all know that many people have made this lazy and inaccurate analysis and at the very least she should use less clumsy language. If she really is saying that it's as if Hitler won, either shes saying Israel are acting like him (ie his legacy lives on) or that he has successfully reduced a Jewish state to barbarism. But he never wanted that. The idea of a strong nuclear armed Israel would have appalled her. So that's why I interpret her statement as I did, and many others would too.

Anyway, it's an interesting discussion, albeit about a particularly small part of a much wider debate, about which I don't doubt we agree on the end goal (a two state solution). It's about how you get there.

It's Friday evening now Jon, I've given it my best shot and no doubt the debate will continue. For now I wish you a lovely evening.

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Last note - I seem to have misgendered Adolf at the tail end of the first paragraph. A serious offence for which I can only apologise.

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/apr/20/pro-israel-groups-gaza-us-elections

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

On Monday, around 50 settlers attacked Aqraba near Nablus, killing Mohammed Bani Jame, 21, and Abdulrahman Bani Fadel, 30. During the rampages, roads were blocked, 60 homes and businesses and more than 100 cars were torched, and hundreds of sheep were killed or stolen, according to first responders and rights groups.

In al-Mughayyir, a fire engine that came to extinguish the blazes on Saturday was also attacked, causing the firefighters to flee. The fire engine was later set alight. Video taken by journalist Mohammed Turkman in al-Mughayyir shows Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers on foot, as well as armoured patrol vehicles, doing nothing to stop the attacks.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/20/nowhere-is-safe-fear-and-mourning-inside-the-west-bank-villages-where-israeli-settlers-went-on-the-rampage

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Calls for the Met commissioner to resign cos a Jewish guy couldn't cross the road.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4n19j892neo

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Israeli strikes on the southern Gaza city of Rafah overnight killed 13 people, including nine children, health officials have said.

The first strike killed a man, his wife and their three-year-old child, according to the nearby Kuwaiti hospital, which received the bodies.

The woman was pregnant and the doctors managed to save the baby, the Associated Press has cited the hospital as saying.

The second strike killed eight children and two women, all from the same family, according to hospital records.

An airstrike in Rafah the night before reportedly killed nine people, including six children.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/apr/21/middle-east-crisis-14-palestinians-killed-as-violence-flares-in-west-bank

[Gofer Blue]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Calls for the Met commissioner to resign cos a Jewish guy couldn't cross the road.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4n19j892neo

Another case of the police being damned if they do or damned if they don't. Suppose this chap had had his way, was allowed to cross the road to confront the pro-Palestinian marchers and was immediately set upon for his trouble. Imagine the outcry because the police failed to defend him!