Brexit again - nothing to see here...

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

As you know, how people voted in that referendum cut across party lines. Of course there were patterns but no stereotypes fitted. The duty of the government was to ensure democracy prevailed and the vote was honoured. That fell to the Tories as govt in 2016-2019 and as you will likely agree was a key reason for them winning the 2019 general election so comfortably.

I haven't mentioned anything about the Tories here though. All I've done is respond to the post about food prices and pointed out that reality has not matched rhetoric, and then asked you to justify the claims in the video you posted and then called out others for essentially calling people gullible and stupid when many of the claims on "their side" were also, demonstrably absolute hogwash designed to prey on their fears. I don't call them gullible though. Hypocrites I guess, but not gullible.

I am "evangelical" (if you like that phrase!?) about respecting how people vote esp when it's working class people. I'm not sure on all of you here, but when I think of those who most vocally slag off leave voters in my life, they universally are wealthier, often with a second home elsewhere abroad or a mum with one etc - that's not to characterise all "remainers" as wealthy (although the wealthy overwhelmingly did vote remain) but to say that in my experience those who were most obnoxious about accepting the result had a financial interest in it. So I have very little time for people who throw around insults based on that, or any other election.

I am also "evangelical" about respecting the result. The way some go on is absolutely the way some MAGA types went on about Trump losing the 2020 election, presenting all kinds of conspiracy theories about it rather than accepting defeat.

It's annoying and unhelpful.

As for leaving the EU, we simply don't know what would have happened. Everywhere in Europe has had a really bad time since 2020. It is impossible to separate COVID and Ukraine from any of it and when you look at the data without cherry picking it, it is balanced. We are doing better than some countries on some things and worse on others - was ever thus. Such a position doesn't sound evangelical to me, it sounds like the truth.

More sanctimonious bollocks

It's never ending

You are typing all this pseudo academic nonsense on here and hardly anyone reads it

It's not about debate It's about you

Take up knitting

[JamesWales]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

More sanctimonious bollocks

It's never ending

You are typing all this pseudo academic nonsense on here and hardly anyone reads it

It's not about debate It's about you

Take up knitting

Don't read it then. If you have nothing to contribute to it, go fishing.

[JamesWales]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

I did suggest you chill. But in all honesty, you've poked the hornet's nest now.

I actually think the only thing that is annoying and unhelpful, James, is you.

Navigating the aftermath of Brexit has ripped open a chasm of frustration and anger in my life. This political circus has inflicted a deeply personal assault on my very sense of identity and belonging. It's not just about losing a few benefits here and there; it's about being violently uprooted from the cultural, professional, and social tapestry of Europe that I was seamlessly woven into. The freedom to live, work, and traverse the breadth of a continent was not a mere policy perk; it was the essence of my life's fabric, now mercilessly shredded by the shortsightedness of a referendum.

Witnessing other European countries continuing their lives with unfettered access to this rich tapestry only magnifies the sense of betrayal and isolation I now endure in the UK. The healthcare debacle, with its mass exodus of indispensable medical professionals, has thrown salt into the gaping wounds of my well-being and life expectancy. It's a brutal reminder of the real, blood-and-bone consequences of political gambles played out by those insulated from the fallout.

James, your attempts to rationalise this debacle by championing the democratic process and the 'will of the people' is nothing short of infuriating. It's a hollow echo in the void left by the loss of my European citizenship. To claim that the government's duty was to uphold democracy is a slap in the face, ignoring the complex web of implications this decision has spun across the lives of countless individuals. The sanctity of the voting process is one thing, but using it as a shield to dismiss the visceral, lived experiences of those thrown into turmoil is quite another.

The gulf between sterile economic arguments and the raw, lived reality of Brexit's impact on people like me is staggering. To reduce this seismic upheaval to political victories or economic indicators is both blind and callous. The discourse surrounding Brexit needs to make room for the searing voices of those directly in its destructive path.

Your reasons for your Brexit evangelism are your own. Stop preaching. You've pissed me off now with your usual sanctimony and f*cking pomposity. You don't want debate. You want to win your argument. It's been going on for years.

I've told you before. I will never 'move on'. It's deeply personal. Just leave it and find something more constructive to do with your time. Your obsession isn't healthy.

People have passionate feelings about it, and all politics on all sides. You aren't alone in that. If you don't want to get your feelings hurt, then perhaps don't go around mocking others. You think its nice being insulted for 8 years, being called things you aren't? Think again. Less of that before the referendum, a little more understanding of people's feelings and you may have won the damned thing in the first place!

I'm sorry you feel upset, I understand how these things matter but the answer to that isn't to post insults and incorrect things on the internet. That won't change a single thing. Certain people lost the referendum, they then lost the Brexit negotiations by failing to back significantly softer exit deals. It's those people, not the voters you should look towards.

If people post things online that others think are untrue, there will be a pushback against it. Don't act in amazement when that happens.

Have a great day.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

Don't read it then. If you have nothing to contribute to it, go fishing.

You make a complete arse of yourself defending your feathered ego

I hardly ever read your political posts these days as its groundhog tory boy nonsense

Look at yourself on here it's a broken record

Like a whale coming up for air it is infuriating to some

[JamesWales]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

You make a complete arse of yourself defending your feathered ego

I hardly ever read your political posts these days as its groundhog tory boy nonsense

Look at yourself on here it's a broken record

Like a whale coming up for air it is infuriating to some

It's a broken record in response to the endless broken records from others posting the same nonsense they have done for 8 years!

I'd like nothing more than that to end, believe me, but posting a few facts to counter emotionally charged videos and the like is not an outrageous thing to do.

I asked 6 simple yes/no questions yesterday. Not a single person has answered them.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

It's a broken record in response to the endless broken records from others posting the same nonsense they have done for 8 years!

I'd like nothing more than that to end, believe me, but posting a few facts to counter emotionally charged videos and the like is not an outrageous thing to do.

Feck off and have a great weekend like you said you were intending on doing then

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

It's a broken record in response to the endless broken records from others posting the same nonsense they have done for 8 years!

I'd like nothing more than that to end, believe me, but posting a few facts to counter emotionally charged videos and the like is not an outrageous thing to do.

I asked 6 simple yes/no questions yesterday. Not a single person has answered them.

Because its you posting the questions

It's all loaded tory boy nonsense

We know you are a right wing tory so people don't want to bother

[JamesWales]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

Feck off and have a great weekend like you said you were intending on doing then

I will do. And you you miserable old toad. 😘

[JamesWales]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

Because its you posting the questions

It's all loaded tory boy nonsense

We know you are a right wing tory so people don't want to bother

Questions and statistics are "Tory boy nonsense" now 🤣.

Honestly!

Have a nice day Sludge.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

You clearly havent read any of the thread whatsoever, so why post?

And the EU is a free market on obsessed organisation run by Conservatives for two decades, so god knows why you think someone defending a democratic vote to leave it is "right-wing" but I've long given up trying to take any logic from what you type tbf!

Still waiting for any of the people on here to answer the questions too. No one has yet, which says something.

Do you think leave would have won without anti immigrant rhetoric? No doubt that lots of people had other motivations to vote Brexit but without some of the more scummy farage anti immigrant campaigning I dont think they break 50%.

Low wages + benefits system disincentivising people to have more than 2 children = reliance on migration to pay for growing retired demographic. People are slowly realising that now.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

Do you think leave would have won without anti immigrant rhetoric? No doubt that lots of people had other motivations to vote Brexit but without some of the more scummy farage anti immigrant campaigning I dont think they break 50%.

Low wages + benefits system disincentivising people to have more than 2 children = reliance on migration to pay for growing retired demographic. People are slowly realising that now.

Those that voted brexit on the pretence of taking our borders back .....absolutely loads of brexit voters .....must be wondering wtf ? now the right wing anti immigration rhetoric has , under the conservatives led to a year on year INCREASE of immigration !

Who are they going to vote for now ?

It would be funny if it wasn't such a serious subject

I think acceptance that the world is changing and managing immigration sensibly ......rather than all this close the borders , stop the boats cobblers .....is the only way to deal with the post brexit cobblers

I wish people would stop fannying about and just admit they don't like foriegners

[JamesWales]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

Do you think leave would have won without anti immigrant rhetoric? No doubt that lots of people had other motivations to vote Brexit but without some of the more scummy farage anti immigrant campaigning I dont think they break 50%.

Low wages + benefits system disincentivising people to have more than 2 children = reliance on migration to pay for growing retired demographic. People are slowly realising that now.

It's an interesting question. I don't think the anri-immigrant rhetoric was that significant. I know to many remain voters it was - many wanted to characterise leave voters as being obsessed with it, but all the evidence points to it being about control, of laws, the economy, immigration, everything. I think that's fair enough.

We also know "the economy" was the biggest issue for Remain voters, so we can also speculate on whether they would have got to 48% without the injection of fear into peoples minds, with the stock market collapse, house price collapse, huge recession etc.

In practice, I think the biggest issue was that 2009-2016 was a difficult time. Austerity, global recession, high immigration and the like, and people were fed up and wanted to lash out. "Take back control" is a very powerful concept. It is the same theme that Drakeford plays on with Westminster and is obviously the core plank of the SNPs policies too.

I think The Remain campaign made a few mistakes. There was a lot of what I would call snobbery online and I think most felt they went too far with project fear. More than anything, people just wanted change. Will it make much difference? I don't think so, although I do agree in principle that laws should be made here. I also think that people want change in the UK now and we will have a new government soon, but again, I doubt it will make much difference to people's lives.

[Wales-Bales]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

Those that voted brexit on the pretence of taking our borders back .....absolutely loads of brexit voters .....must be wondering wtf ? now the right wing anti immigration rhetoric has , under the conservatives led to a year on year INCREASE of immigration !

Who are they going to vote for now ?

It would be funny if it wasn't such a serious subject

I think acceptance that the world is changing and managing immigration sensibly ......rather than all this close the borders , stop the boats cobblers .....is the only way to deal with the post brexit cobblers

I wish people would stop fannying about and just admit they don't like foriegners

The world isn't changing, it is being changed. You can't just rock up in any non-western country and tell them you are coming to live there as you will be thrown in jail, and then deported whenever it suits them.

[life on mars]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

You are just about the only fecker on here continually supporting the right of centre

On everything, not just brexit

That's not a coincidence

I don't know why you blow hot air into your own echo chamber as half the time it's so verbose and opinionated it's like something out of an Eton old boys club

I certainly don't bother reading most of your replies as it's the same old yeah but no but yeah excuses

I think you would be better off going for a walk than typing endless right wing essays on here

It's a bust bog flush

He's not the only one, some folk stay silent to avoid the nasty left side insults which can be so personal.

Far worse than the right of centre folk who to be fair are measured and not so rude.

James Wales is not one to be personal and has a right to debate his views .

The little political club that sits within CCMB is quite nasty a group.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Brexit again - nothing to see here...

He's not the only one, some folk stay silent to avoid the nasty left side insults which can be so personal.

Far worse than the right of centre folk who to be fair are measured and not so rude.

James Wales is not one to be personal and has a right to debate his views .

The little political club that sits within CCMB is quite nasty a group.

You simply can't be taken seriously as you spent 5 years saying you were a lapsed socialist and now are further to the right than the gestapo

Are you his personal assistant ?